ACA new hires

[Alafly]

Just wondering,.....how is the future looking at ACA. Getting a little tired of flying 135, and am checking into this regional. Me...1850TT, PIC 135 Be20, 10's, 90's, etc... Hoping to get a little insight into what maybe to expect. And if anyone else has any info on getting in the door without a walk-in reference, I would appreciate it very much. I check my PM often also. Thanks a ton.

ALAFLY

 

[Sunnfun]

According to their website these are the new mins (updated 6/24/2002):

1) 1800 total flight hours/ 350multi engine
2) FCC License (Radio Operators permit)
3) Must be eligible to hold a First class medical passport
4) Must be eligible to work in the U.S.
5) Aviation degree
6) 200 hours of 121/135 experience
7) Jet experience
8) Experience with: GPS, EFIS, FMS, ACARS

http://www.atlanticcoast.com/ACA_Employment_Opportunities/jobops.asp

Whatever "Jet Experience" means...

Hope that helps.

 

[Tim47SIP]

re minimums

Dont quote me, but I have been told that their competitive mins are well above the 3500 hour mark. At ASA, we have stacks of 5000 hour applicants. Dont give up though, send in the res!

 

[Sunnfun]

If you look at

http://www.aviationinterviews.com/pilotgougedisplay.php3?company=aca

you'll see, that the guys who were hired are all over the place hourwise. I think, it really depends on who walks your resume in and what kind of flying you've been doing.

cheers,

 

[NEDude]

They have been hiring a lot of guys out of CommutAir, most with under 1500TT and some even without walk-ins. This is very recent, as in the past week or two.

 

[TWA Dude]

According to their website these are the new mins (updated 6/24/2002):

5) Aviation degree

I thought that must be a typo so I checked out the site for myself. It's true: if your degree isn't in "aviation" then you're not qualified to fly for ACA. I really hope I don't get furloughed now because my only degree is in aeronautical engineering, not aviation.

 

[capt_zman]

Also, if you look closely at the requirements on their website, I love the "have 600 hours total time, 100 multi for special bridge programs normally associated with aviation universities. helicopter time counts towards these figures, but you must have 200 hours fixed wing time and current in fixed wing airplanes."

What a joke! 200 hours of fixed wing time and we'll have you running around the countryside in a shiny new CRJ.
Please give me a break.

 

[skyrider]

To apply for a position at ACA, you must meet the following requirements:


have authorization to work in the United States

Have 1500 hours total time, 250 multi-engine

Have 1,000 hours total time, 375 multi-engine with an aviation degree or military flight
school graduation, 200 hours part 121 experience

Have 600 hours total time, 100 multi-engine for special "Bridge" programs normally
associated with aviation universities. (helicopter time counts towards these figures, but
you must have 200 hours fixed wing time and current in fixed wing aircraft)

I just cut & pasted this off of their website.

Have the proper U.S. Licenses & Certificates

Hold a current FAA Class II medical certificate

Hold a Class I medical

Pass FAA-mandated drug test & PRIA background check

Be able to read, and speak English clearly and fluently

Hold a commercial license

Have a Radiotelephone Operator's Permit

We prefer our pilots to have an ATP license

 

[Tim47SIP]

capt-zman

Dood,
You have no clue as to how many helicopter guys have been hired by all of the regionals. Litteraly hundreds. These are of course military rotorywing guys that then got the civillian fixed wing ratings on their own, and then the 200 hours. At ASA, there are more than a hundred individuals hired in the last four years with only 100 hours of fixed wing time. I know of one individual that was hired with 60 hours! He went into the E-120 with no problems, and then transitioned 8 months later into the RJ, again with no problems (I know of several fixed wing only guys that have tried to get through the RJ course and have failed twice). They (mil rotorywing guys) do quite well as some of the stuff that they fly in the mil is twice as complex as some of the stuff they will fly at the regionals. As you can see by my profile, I have a little experience in the subject. I can unequovocally (sp?) assure you that fixed wing aircraft are much easier to fly than any helicopter. Although, I earned all of my 3200 hours of fixed wing flying on my own, I deffinitely have respect for the guys that get through training with the 100 hours of multi. Not an insult to you, just realize that there are different means of getting in the door. I personally dont see the difference between a 300 hour intern with Embry Riddle, and one of these rotorywing guys. Well, I do see the difference, but that is a different subject. Have a nice day.

I appoligize, that was ment to be 60 hours of Multi time and 100 hours of multi time. They of course had all of the other fixed wing time needed for their ratings.

 

[46Driver]

Capt_Zman,
Upon what experience do you base your opinion? I am curious since your background indicates little knowledge of rotary wing aviation (We have made a few improvements since M*A*S*H......)

 

[capt_zman]

I thought that the requirements were an apsect of the bridge program meaning the 600 hour bridge stuff. I didn't interpret it to include military rotary guys.

But since you bring it up, I can't agree that a 600 hour pilot, or 200 hour pilot, should be flying a 450 kt airplane in that type of environment. Sure, it's been done before, it just doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe I don't know sh1t from shinola about helicopters, but I do know that it took me a long time to feel comfortable flying around in congested airspace in crappy weather with paying passengers in the back. With 200 hours, I simply can't understand it.

 

[46Driver]

Perhaps I can give you a different perspective since I fly both on a daily basis. The 200 fixed wing hours is in addition to already having 1000+ hours in (usually) a multi-crewed, multi-turbine rotary wing aircraft.
Speed is relative: 300 knots at 20,000 feet feels nowhere near as fast as 120 knots at 50 feet (although I will admit, no helicopter accelerates like a Dornier.)
Congestion is already relative: New York approach certainly has a lot going on (especially on the radios) but "crowded airspace" takes on a whole new meaning with a flight of six (all fully loaded with troops), weaving back and forth 2 rotors apart, at 200 feet, trying to find an unlit landing zone instead of being vectored in trail for the ILS to a 12,000 runway lit by high intensity lights while watching the TCAS to determine the 3 miles of spacing between aircraft.
As for the Embry-Riddle grads with 600 hours, I have to say I have been very impressed by those guys. They really pick up on a lot of stuff quickly and do a good job. They may have only 600 hours but they know their stuff, and besides, they are flying as a copilot for the next few years anyway. For perspective, the military turns guys loose in single seat high performance fighters (with weapons systems) with only 300 to 400 hours of total time.....

 

[SigTauPilot]

ACA was out here at ERAU the other day doing interveiws, thats about all i know

 

[surplus1]

I don't know anything about ACA's requirements or practices, but I feel the need to say something on behalf of the helo pilots as well as the low-time civilian guys/gals.

I've never flown a helicopter and only ridden in one on two occasions (both scary). However, over the last 20 years or so, I've had occasion to fly with a great many pilots with backgrounds in military helos and very little fixed-wing flight hours. Without exception, ALL were outstanding individuals and airmen. Not only could they do the job, but they did it well in everything from light twins (25,000 #) to 4-engine jet transports.

Of course they weren't perfect, but neither am I. In the beginning they made "mistakes" in ATC jargon in congested airspace, but no more mistakes than those made by B-52 Wing Commanders, F-15 "tigers", F-18 "top guns" or Harrier stand outs. What's more, they knew they weren't "experts" and were less arrogant by far (more than I could say for many of the other types). They understood the aircrafts systems as well as anyone else, were disciplined and professional in every way. It's been a privilege to fly with them and I wish we could hire them all.

[Not to mention how grateful I am for their very tough and dedicated service to our country, which applies to all military airmen, regardless of branch of service.]

In my present job, I've also flown with many very "low-time" civilian pilots, from places like ERAU, FSI, FIT and of course, the infamous Comair Academy. Those young people were alert, eager, bright, knowledgable, interested and above all compentent. They work hard, study harder, are often "challenged", but do a good job. Most are so "willing and eager" to learn, that its a real pleasure to fly with them. I never asked how many "hours" they had and frankly, I never cared. Whatever their flight time, or which "kite" it was in, it was enough to get hired at the moment, they got through training and they could do a good job. I say, bring 'em on.

In my opinion, WHO your company decides to hire is a lot more important than the hours in that pilot's logbook. The QUALITY of the training your company provides, is also more important than the hours in your log. Your "attitude" as a professional is also a key factor and perhaps even the most important.

If I had to find fault (and I don't) with the new low-time civilian pilots, it wouldn't be with their flying. It would be with the fact than many are more interested in how much money they make, how long they'll be on reserve or how fast they will "upgrade", than with how well they do the job. However, that's a societal problem, not a flight-time problem. If you chose this profession in search of the "big bucks", then you're probably in the wrong profession, in my book. Be a business man, you'll do better. And no, that does NOT mean I think pilots should not be well paid. I just don't think money is a reason to become a professional pilot.

Although I've logged more than 20K hours in command of a variety of T-category aircraft, I still make frequent mistakes and I learn something every time I fly. If you're flying for a living and you're not learning all the time, then I recommend you do something else, like get a good day job. We all make errors and the only thing that changes with lots of "hours" is the type of error that we make. There is no place for pride in the cockpit of an airliner. Save the pride for the time you spend between flights and you'll be ahead of the game.

In the few times I've had difficulty with another "new-hire" crew member it has always been with those who had more "hours" and were "experts" at everything before they came to the airline. It's much more difficult to modify bad habits picked up who knows where, than it is to instill good habits in those with relatively few flight hours and a desire to advance. The self-discipline evident in most former military helo pilots is a big plus in this regard.

So hat's off to the helo pilots as well as to the young pilots from the flight schools and ab-initio programs.

Good luck to all of you. Once you get the airline job you want, you will have joined a club like no other. It's the most frustrating, exciting, boring and rewarding job you could ever hope for.

Fly safe.

 

[UALX727]

<<ACA was out here at ERAU the other day doing interviews, thats about all i know>>

I graduated ERAU in 1991.....presently furloughed from United. Being that ACA is currently benefitting from the outsourcing of my job, (RJ growth) are they giving preferential hiring to all furloughed UAL pilots???

 

[popilot78]

from what I hear (do not quote me on this) is that they are not hiring anymore mainline guys or gals. maybe just a rumor going around. can't say for sure.

 

[Anaconda]

great post, surplus1. thanks for coming to the defense of helo guys everywhere!

 

[TIMP]

Surplus1,

Excellent post!! I couldn't have said it better. It's unfortunate how young inexperienced pilots are so quick to judge with ignorance. I fly both helo and fixed-wing, and without a doubt the helo flying is more difficult, especially military helo flying. Some of the missions I've flown in with the mil would make a civilian fixed-wing pilot run crying for mmma.

I've also seen 500 hour pilots fly better then 3000 hour pilots. It's about attitude and respect for professionalism that helps make a good pilot.

Timp

 

[AeroDMB]

The intern program involves UND, ERAU and I believe one other university. There are many other "bridge programs" that are in place at several regionals but since hiring slowed down so has the bridge program. But, that's the wonderful aspect of ACA, they are still hiring lots of pilots.

 

[Flightjock30]

I wonder if all regional and majors will be requiring aviation degress down the road?

 

[zkmayo]

UALX727,

ACA will interview you as a furloughed pilot and there is a strong desire to give furloughed pilots preferencial selection. ACA has interviewed and hired many fuloughed pilots from ALG, Midway, Commutair, Eagle, and others. Two things to consider however: ACA will ask you to resign your seniority and secondly that I know of I have not heard of one single UAL pilot interviewing at ACA since furloughs were annouced at UAL. Of course, everyone would welcome them, but I think everyone both there and here views it as reversing their career and it may be better just to ride out the furlough. If youre looking for a public endorsement from our MEC as a notion of good faith, I understand that but I think the reality of the above reasons are why it hasnt happened.

I am sorry that you feel that your job is being outsourced and politely disagree with you. The RJs ACA has on order have been the same since before 9/11 and since UAL CBA 2000. True, ACA has been given numerous former UAL routes and stations but the intention of this from the ACA pilot perspective is two fold: 1. We are doing this as a temporary stop gap until UAL gets back on its fleet and puts mainline ac back on these routes. Hopefully when this day comes ACA will have to reallocate these ac to new routes to be developed for UAL. 2. ACA pilots fly ac where our company tells us to fly the ac. Dont blame the pilots for taking your job. Virtually every pilot at ACA I think would agree with me here when I say that our job is to help grow UAL, not be UAL. Also, when UAL is in good shape, ACA is on solid ground. While ACA is in good shape now, I know having UAL healthy is crucial to ACA's continued success.

Fly safe.

 

[skyrider]

Well said Mr. Mayo!

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Capt-ZMan

Just so you know, I know of a ton of guys with 200 fixed-wing hours who are highly experienced, thouroughly competant aviators who have been flying highly complex multi-engine aircraft.

They are military helo pilots, with not a lot of fixed wing time. A large number of them are awesome pilots.

I know of a guy with about 12 ME airplane who got offers with TSA and Eagle. He couldn't have gotten offers from NWA/Delta, etc. because of his low ME fixed-wing time, although he would be great going right into any equipment that they had.

I must note that this guy also had about 900 hours turbine as a Naval flight instructor, but it was also SE. He is probably the best pilot I've met so far.

You can't judge a book by the cover.

Cliff
GRB

PS-Currently, in the AF, you start out in a ME Jet for your first flight. THe fighters guys are Captains (there's no FO) in the -15s and -16s and -10s with about 300 hours total time. We've never lost an F-15 in combat.

 

[Rotorhead]

Also, if you look closely at the requirements on their website, I love the "have 600 hours total time, 100 multi for special bridge programs normally associated with aviation universities. helicopter time counts towards these figures, but you must have 200 hours fixed wing time and current in fixed wing airplanes."

What a joke! 200 hours of fixed wing time and we'll have you running around the countryside in a shiny new CRJ.
Please give me a break.

Normally I am pretty level headed but your post is one of the most ridiculous, narrow minded, idiotic, and uneducated I have ever read. The 600TT100Multi is for bridge program applicants. The 200hr FW requirement applies only to rotary wing aviators. That 200hrs in FW aircraft is frequently combined with several thousand helicopter hours.

 

[surplus1]

<<ACA was out here at ERAU the other day doing interviews, thats about all i know>>

I graduated ERAU in 1991.....presently furloughed from United. Being that ACA is currently benefitting from the outsourcing of my job, (RJ growth) are they giving preferential hiring to all furloughed UAL pilots???

1) Sorry you're furloughed. Hope you get back to work soon.

2) You won't like this, but you need to hear it. Since I don't work for ACA it will not be a repeat of zxmayo's post. That's his opinion and I respect him for saying what he did but I think differently. While it would be nice if they hired you, ACA owes you nothing.

First of all, you didn't lose your job because it was outsourced to ACA or any other UAL feeder. You lost it because of the economic downturn, the 9-11 tragedy, and the mis-management of your company by your own executives. ACA didn't "buy" UAL and you have no "right" to employment at ACA, any more than ACA pilots have a "right" to employment at UAL. You (UAL) don't do anything to give them preferential hiring. Why should they do it for you?

When UAL purchased Air Wisconsin, they (AW) only had about 300 pilots. Your company (UAL) literally destroyed Air Wisconsin and caused its pilots to be unemployed in large numbers. Your MEC did nothing to help those pilots find employment at UAL, and made promises to them which your MEC never kept. Your MEC made the hollow "excuse" that it couldn't get the Company to agree to hire any AW pilots, yet that same MEC got the Company to hire hundreds of mainline pilots from EAL and others. who had lost their jobs. AW pilots were no less competent and no less qualified, but there was "no room at the inn".

The Air Wisconsin pilots, unlike the current UAL pilots, did not lose their jobs because of economic difficulty, they lost them as a direct result of the acquisition of their airline, by your airline. Your MEC and your "joint" union (they were ALPA) did nothing serious to get them jobs at UAL (with the possible exception of 1 union official). AW isn't the only "regional" bought or ruined by UAL with similar consequence. Sometimes, you reap what you sow.

Maybe this was before your time and you don't know about it. Well you should know for history is important and, all of us should strive to help each other in time of need. It's a two-way street my friend.

BTW, I am not a former or bitter Air Wisconsin pilot. I've never worked for them or been affiliated in any way with AW or UAL. I'm just old enough to remember. I also remember that your MEC tried to offer preferential interviews to striking Comair pilots, for which we were grateful and appreciative. So times can change and it's not "all bad". We (union pilots) should all try to help each other, all of the time. You should not have a "chip" on the shoulder re alleged "outsourcing", which is not the cause of your furlough.

Again, sorry you're furloughed, hope you get back soon and wish you good luck.

Surplus1
CMR

 

[TheFlyingturkey]

ACA only requires a degree in aviation with the reduced flight time stipulation (1000tt 350me with degree)

Otherwise 1500tt 250me no degree required.

Or 600tt 100me when affiliated with a "bridge partner".

I plan on getting my degree after I finish my training and start working.

Turk.

 

[UALX727]

ZKMayo and Surplus1

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I agree with a lot of what you have to both say, actually. I wasn't around when the Air Wisconsin stuff went down and don't know a whole lot about it.

As far as ACA goes, yes, they do not "owe" me a job. But I find it strange that they are not interviewing furloughed UAL pilot's. You are correct in saying it would be unwise for me to give up my seniority at UAL.

I could make this a very long post about a very complicated subject (outsourcing), but to tell you the truth I am sick of worrying about it all. Can't control it. Heck, even our own union leadership at UAL wants to give management the farm in this ERP package. I am disgusted at being "sold-out" by UAL ALPA, but that is another story.

I still have to disagree with you in regards to the outsourcing of mainline jobs. I believe it is happening. I simply just look at all of the routes UAL has lost to outsourced RJ flying in the past few years. It will continue to get worse for us (mainline) and will be a benefit to the regional pilots.

I know the RJ is here to stay, that's for sure. What I worry about is how the industry will look 10-20 years down the road. I truly believe that management will continue to outsource as much flying as they can to the regionals. They will do this solely to take advantage of the labor cost differences. As long as these wide gaps continue to exist in our industry's pay structure, management will try to expoit it. And they will try to keep it in place.

I see a day coming very soon where RJ's fleets outnumber the mainline fleets of the major carriers. It will be very hard for anyone to get hired at a major due to less positions available and an increased supply of highly qualified jet pilots. The competition will be fierce. For many the regional "stepping-stone" will become a career position.

Oh well, so much for my short post. I was a regional guy for almost 6 years so I have seen both sides of things (expansion, contraction,etc.) Good luck, fellas.

 

[capt_zman]

All,

I had a well written response ready to post before my computer melted down the other day. So in my defense, my so-called narrow minded, idiotic response was taken in the wrong context. I misunderstood the 200 hr requirement and in no way intended to undermine the capabilities of the military pilots (fixed or rotary). I had thought that the requirement related to the bridge programs (my fault for poorly reading my own post).

Even after reading Surplus1's post, I still fail to agree about the employment of low-time pilots, the overall concept of bridge programs and how it relates to today's pilot marketplace. Yes, these pilots certainly have flying skills and knowledge, that is uncontested, but becoming a professional pilot is more than just skill. It's taking well earned experience and applying that experience at different levels within the aviation community.

I once was offered a very interesting piece of advice by the CEO of Oracle, Larry Ellison. He explained to me that "There are reasons there are increasing levels within a corporation. At the entry level, a person views only a very small portion of the playing field. With time, as that person increases another level, they begin to see a larger portion of that playing field and they can apply the knowledge they have learned accordingly."

It took me a few years to really understand what this comment meant, because I was gaining experience during that time and when I elevated to the next level, I was able to apply the knowledge I had learned over the years. For example, I am a 3200 hour pilot. I only know and can apply what I have learned in those 3200 hours. I don't think I can compare to the experience and knowledge of a 10,000 hour pilot because I have not been privy to those extra 6800 hours of experience. I may be able to fly just as well, but that makes up only a percentage of the job function. Using surplus1's words, "I still make frequent mistakes and I learn something every time I fly.", is something that can't go unnoticed. If a 25,000 hour pilot is learning something everytime he flies, how can I be expected to apply that knowledge?

This concept is what drives my feeling towards competition between different experience levels. Maybe this is the crux of the major vs. regional payscale problem. Regionals have always hired as entry-level positions. Should there be such a vast difference in pay based on experience? It looks like most major airlines think so. I would estimate that 99.9% of corporate America thinks so as well.

As for bridge programs, those students are given a good foundation to proceed further in their career by specializing in aviation. This is great for entry level positions which require/accept limited practical experience. So how can a 600 hour bridge program pilot compete with the bushels of more experienced pilots for the same job? Through determination and attitude? Again, those are only a percentage of the job function. Also, why would an airline publish mins that include bridge programs if they know that there are literally thousands of more experienced pilots available? Doesn't this take away from the credibility of the airline?

Today's pilot market is extremely competitive, there's no question about that. Based on that fact, I disagree with some remarks that the "right attitude" or "eager, bright and interested" is all it takes, because where I'm sitting, I bet everyone longing for an aviation job is "eager, bright and interested." It's the experience and knowledge that makes the difference.

Just to reiterate, no dig meant on military pilots. My mistake.

 

[surplus1]

Re: ZKMayo and Surplus1

UALX727,

Nice post. Thanks for taking the time. Allow me a comment or two if you will.

I still have to disagree with you in regards to the outsourcing of mainline jobs. I believe it is happening. I simply just look at all of the routes UAL has lost to outsourced RJ flying in the past few years. It will continue to get worse for us (mainline) and will be a benefit to the regional pilots.

For the sake of discussion, I'll assume that what you said is true. Now let's look at why this happened. Suppose that instead of Scoping out the little airplanes, they had been Scoped in. What would be the difference today?

1) UAL would own and operate all the RJs that you see as "outsourcing" and there would be no UAL "feeders".

2) The same number of pilots that are furloughed today, would still be furloughed as the airline, for the same reasons, reduced it's larger airplane flying and increased its small airplane flying to accomodate market conditions. Since ALL the pilots would be UAL pilots, the only real change would be whose name appears on the furlough list. We would still have the same number of furloughed pilots total, and all the downgrades, etc. associated with the cutback.

3) Instead of being furloughed as you are today, depending on your DOH, you might have moved from FE on the 72 to FO on the RJ, and someone else, junior to you would be furloughed.

Nothing changes except the name on the furlough list. My point is this. The "outsourcing" problem is one of our own invention. We, the pilots, established the "separate" categories of airplanes and therefore, the separate categories of pilots. It did not change what the company does. All it really changed is whose seniority list your name happens to be on.

The furloughed pilot, whomever he might be, would still be unhappy about losing his job. He just would not have the same opportunity to point the finger at "the RJ" or the "DO-328" or whatever type it happened to be.

The Companies didn't invent these "different" classes of pilots on separate seniority lists. We the pilots, did it ourselves. WE decided we didn't want the little planes at the mainline (for whatever reason). So, we exempted them from Scope.

If market conditions justified an increase in the number of large aircraft (instead of the number of small aircraft), the small airplane pilots would be upgrading as the little airplanes were phased out. Hiring would probably stop.

This is an economic problem. Right now, the company needs more small aircraft. We are the ones who decided that we did not want those small aircraft or their pilots on the mainline. Therefore, some of us a paying the price of that decision.

I truly believe that management will continue to outsource as much flying as they can to the regionals. They will do this solely to take advantage of the labor cost differences. As long as these wide gaps continue to exist in our industry's pay structure, management will try to expoit it. And they will try to keep it in place.

There is a "wide gap" between the salary of a 747 Captain and that of a 737 Captain. Yet, if the Company buys more 737s than 747s, we don't say they are "exploiting" the wage gap.

If all the RJs were operated by UAL instead of AW, ACA, SKYW, etc., there would still be a "wage gap" between the RJ and the 737, and it would probably be quite similar to the one that exists today. If the Company bought more RJs instead of more 737s we would not be saying they were "exploiting the wage gap." Instead, we'd say "I wish they'd buy more 73's so I can upgrade."

Again, the problem exists because the pilots at the mainline made a concious decision to exclude the small aircraft from the mainline operation. Market conditions have caused the small aircraft to proliferate (something they failed to anticipate). Now they can't get that flying back or I should say, they have not really tried to get it back.

The barn door was opened and the livestock is gone. If you won't or can't round them up and herd them back into the barn, closing the doors is irrelevant.

The problem isn't outsourcing, it's segregation. Remove the cause and you'll fix the problem. At this point, that's easier said than done.

I wish you the very best.