AC chooses BBD & EMB

[lowecur]

15 CRJ200's, 30 CRJ705s, 45 EMB 190's. Options will double these numbers.

This probably signals the end of the line for the 717. That's a shame, as the 717 is a fine a/c. The rest of the Star Alliance is looking for 100 seat a/c, and they undoubtedly will be the EMB.

Congrads to both BBD, and ERJ.

 

[DCitrus9]

I don't see how this signals the end of the line for the 717, perhaps I missed something. Who is AC?

 

[B6Busdriver]

AC=AIR CANADA

 

[Heavy Set]

Great news for the Air Canada pilots! I presume the mainline pilots will likely fly the EMB-190s and the JAZZ/Regional pilots will fly the CRJs...

Delta continues to fall behind in the EMB-190 line - when will Delta get its act together and order a 100-seater???????


Congrats to the AC guys!

 

[FDJ2]

I don't see how this signals the end of the line for the 717, perhaps I missed something. Who is AC?

The problem with the 717 is there are very few customers for the aircraft. It might be a great aircraft to fly, but with no large orders, Boeing can't afford to keep the 717 line open much longer. Once 717 production ceases, since there are so few flying, parts and maintenance support will be harder to come by and much more costly. It starts to become a selffulfilling prophesy, as fewer and fewer airlines want to invest in a 717, fewer and fewer airlines will even consider the 717 the right airframe, since they don't want to be caught holding the bag on an airframe with such limited distribution and an almost certain short production run.

I believe AC is Air Canada.

 

[FLB717]

Lowecur has always been raising the pom poms over the EMB 190 etc product, to say it is the end of the 717 ok, you can say it but I'd put my 717 against your 170 on quality, servicablity and length of service any day. And if anyone has followed the managment decisions of the Canadian airlines for the last 20 years Ive seen little to indicate anything they do makes sense.

 

[amcnd]

The real answer is.. how many EMB-190 can you buy for the same price as 1 B-717..2 maybe 3. With half the fuel burn and twice the range!!!

 

[DCitrus9]

FDJ2, I understand how the production line finances work, but thank you for discussing it. The fact is Lowecur made yet another baseless dig on the 717. Good on EMB for marketing their aircraft, but to assume Boeing is just going to throw in the towel is rather foolish. There are still outstanding orders for the 717, we are in fact waiting for planes.

AMCND, you obviously don't care about researching facts, but I'll share a few for those that do.
.............................EMB 190 ....................... B717
list price................30 mil ..............................30 mil
actual cost .............?.........................FL: less than 20 mil
seats(1 class/32").....98..............................117
Range ...................2200.................. 1430 (2060 w/ aux)
fuel burn/mi.............est. 13 lb/mi................. act. 14 lb/mi
note: actual burn varies with stage length and wind, numbers provided based on max range 0 wind. The 717 is more efficient than estimated, we will have to see if the EMB190 can do the same. FL currently runs tighter pitch, allowing 2 class with 117 seats.

I'm sure the EMB190 will be a respectable machine, but other than tweaking a few efficiencies via a newer and lighter airframe and providing appropriately sized fuel tanks, it is still just an airplane and subject to the same laws of physics as the B717.
I really like the B717, but I do not need to justify it's existence. I simply wanted to correct some glaring lies that were distributed as fact. EMB facts, and most 717 facts were gleaned from their respective web sites.

 

[lowecur]

An analyst said ERJ would have ended up with the 705 order, but they couldn't produce them quickly enough. This is a problem for ERJ, as they have a large backlog of a/c (with limited mfg space) to mfg until the middle of 2005. At that time the production facilities should open up.

The 170-190 airframes will be mfg in a single space as opposed to the production line used for the other airframes. In time this will speed up the process of production. In 2006, they should have capacity for up to 150 170-190's per year, and that should increase incrementally by 25 in the following years. There's still plenty of room if the carrier can wait until 2006.

In regards to the 717 future. This order was paramount to BA in order to keep the 717 production line viable. I expect to hear they will not be taking new orders for the plane in the near future.
This will leave AirTran and a few others with orphan fleets. Don't look for DL to do AirTran any favors and order the 717.

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2, I understand how the production line finances work, but thank you for discussing it. The fact is Lowecur made yet another baseless dig on the 717. Good on EMB for marketing their aircraft, but to assume Boeing is just going to throw in the towel is rather foolish. There are still outstanding orders for the 717, we are in fact waiting for planes.

I'm not sure Lowecur made a baseless dig on the 717. Personally I think it's a sweet jet, but unfortunately it has not been enthusiastically embraced by the industry and there are only 37 orders left on the books for the 717, bringing their total deliveries up to only 161 aircraft since 1999. That's just not sustainable over the long term.

OTOH, just as a point of comparison, Boeing has had 1,163 orders for the 737-6/7/800 series and EMB has firm orders for 235 Emb170/190 series aircraft in just the last year or so, with many more orders coming in.

The future of the 717 does not look bright, unless someone steps up and makes a large order. With only 37 orders left to fill, the end of the line for 717 production may come soon.

 

[General Lee]

I have a question. Is the CRJ-705 really the CRJ-900 with a first class section? Didn't USAir order some 705's?

Also, I like the 717 too. I rode an Airtran jumpseat (pre-9-11) and thought it was very nice, and it had good pick-up with great acceleration on TO. But, FDJ2 is correct----Boeing needs more orders for the 717 to keep that LGB production line going....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[lowecur]

The only company I see making a large order for the 717 is NWAC. Their 9's can probably fly another 100 years, but eventually they will need to order new a/c. The pilot's have just made overtures that they want to iron out a new contract by March as long as equity is included. Management must also take an equal payroll hit. This should put them in great position to make an order for 100 seaters by summer. A couple of 100 new 717's would save the production line, but I think NW must step to the plate in the next 6 months.

 

[lowecur]

General

The 705 is the 900 airframe. It was designed as a scope-buster, but alpa caught on in a hurry. They have options for 705's, but I think the 700's are all that is firm.

 

[Citrus Jockey]

717 production

I agree that unless Boeing has a large order for 717s in the near future production will stop on the 717. AirTran will do just fine with this fleet if it does end. AirTran has already ordered 737s so our reliance on getting more 717s has diminished greatly. As far as operating an orphan fleet who cares. Northwest operates 140 DC9s and they seem to do well with them. AirTran now has 73 717s with 14 more to come. I hear that Impulse Airlines in Australia will be getting rid of their 14 717s. I bet AirTran picks those up at a very good price. Just like we picked up the 717s from TWA at a steal. And I am sure other small operators of the 717 will probably do the same. So I bet by the time it is all over we have well over 100 717s. If other operators can't/don't do well with the 717s that is their problem. The 717 is one of the reasons AirTran has done so well. When the first 717 was delivered to AirTran in 1999 Joe Leonard our CEO basically said this airplane is either going to make us or break us. Well it has done a good job so far. Sure I am biased, but nonetheless it has been a great airplane for AirTran.

The reason the 717 has not done so well order wise is because Boeing has not pushed it very hard. It is not a Boeing product, it was a remanent of the MD product line (MD-95) that Boeing was pretty much committed to building when it bought McDonnell Douglas in 1997 because of existing orders. It competes with the 737 for orders, and Boeing is not going to push the 717 when a customer may order a 737. There is also no family of airplanes to order from (ie 717-100, 717-300 etc) because again Boeing did not want to build a family of airplanes that competed with the 737. I think if McDonnell Douglas had stayed independent and continued the MD-95 program with larger and smaller models, the plane would have done better. The death of this airplane probably happedned in 1997 when Boeing bought MD, two years before the first 717 rolled off the assembly line.

 

[FDJ2]

I wouldn't consider the DC-9 an "orphaned" fleet. Douglas built 976 DC-9s over an 18 year production cycle. The DC-9 has been a very popular airframe in the industry with a long track record of safe and efficient performance. NW has access to nearly unlimited parts and vast corporate knowledge of the aircraft. If Boeing shuts down the 717 production line there just won't be that much maintenance support and parts due to the limit number of airframes produced.

The 717 seems like a nice aircraft, but perhaps it is just a victim of poor timing and the end of Douglas. Perhaps NWA will jump in and save the day with a large order, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

All that being said, Airtran is getting some 737s, so your overall exposure to the 717 will decrease.

 

[Midnight Mike]

*Sigh* we were kind of hoping that Air Canada would buy the 717 and then the rest of the Star Alliance would follow. Impulse/Quantas Link will probably start to phase out the 717's towards the end of 2004, they are picking up A320's. No worries about Airtran and their 717's, Boeing will take care of them.

 

[Citrus Jockey]

I believe Boeing is commited contractually to supplying maintance support/parts for the 717s for the life of those aircraft. Just as they are doing for the DC9 fleet. I would think the majority of parts for those DC9s are coming from suppliers and not old airframes sitting out in the desert. Maybe an airplane like the Dornier Jet is a little different because Dornier went out of business/bankruptcy and therefore the support just isn't there anymore.

 

[FLB717]

With the new CEO of Boeing being the old CEO of MD Im wondering if the 717 may have a new friend?