ABX Mega Proffer

[Jurassic Jet]

And it looks like one DC8 Capt downbid?
I thought you couldn't do thaty?

There are 2 separate G.W.'s. One Standards and one line CA.

 

[two(2)%]

The PFE's who took these proffers are hedging they'll make it through. They still get their "silver bullet". After they fail the "wreck" ride, they still get one more shot on their way out the door. That's what Jimmy "the finger" Finfinger is doing right now. Condolences to the unlucky SO's. I hope someday soon We can get them back.

Wait a minute: Let's suppose a PFE bids a proffer and hasn't been surplussed yet. Then during the upgrade training, this particular PFE's seniority number is eliminated (the PFE is surplussed). However, the PFE position still exists, just not at this PFE's level. Next, the PFE fails to upgrade.

Question: does this PFE have seniority preferential rights? Can he bump other pilots and begin training in whatever the PFE's seniority can hold per some letter of agreement?

 

[ABXbooger]

there is either a side letter or some kind of "agreement" that allows the PFEs to have an extra shot at upgrade when their positions are being eliminated. Hence the "fingers" extra shot. I wonder if these guys have been recommended by the company, and if not, if they fail do they get another shot?

 

[GoABX]

It will be interesting to see how strick to standards the training department will be. First people (mostly captains that had to fly w/ the exPFEs) were complaining that they were too easy, then some PFEs were sqwawking about TRNG being too hard.

If I could get extra chances and my career depended on it, I'd probably take every chance I could. But someone getting 2-3 chances in a row and failing while a waiting pilot goes on unemployment is bull$hit. It would be nice if the company said oops we made a mistake we meant 7 Dc-9 proffers not 4 and let the other 3 SOs in the door. If there is too much delay the S/Os will get leap frogged again by more PFEs.

 

[penguin22]

It will be interesting to see how strick to standards the training department will be. First people (mostly captains that had to fly w/ the exPFEs) were complaining that they were too easy, then some PFEs were sqwawking about TRNG being too hard.

If I could get extra chances and my career depended on it, I'd probably take every chance I could. But someone getting 2-3 chances in a row and failing while a waiting pilot goes on unemployment is bull$hit. It would be nice if the company said oops we made a mistake we meant 7 Dc-9 proffers not 4 and let the other 3 SOs in the door. If there is too much delay the S/Os will get leap frogged again by more PFEs.

Personally, I haven't had any problem flying with an exPFE. But those are the ones who made it thru training.

But I agree... giving those guys their extra shots while the SOs hit the street doesn't feel right. What's gonna happen when a PFE bombs all his chances? Recall a guy who was just furloughed to fill the slot? How stupid is that?

 

[ABXbooger]

Looks like we aren't the only airline that has OPF wh**es!


http://members.lycos.co.uk/calalpa/RM0G_VJRM.mp3


and this one fits too, great ending!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/calalpa/RM0G_Fatigued.mp3

 

[erichartmann]

there is either a side letter or some kind of "agreement" that allows the PFEs to have an extra shot at upgrade when their positions are being eliminated. Hence the "fingers" extra shot. I wonder if these guys have been recommended by the company, and if not, if they fail do they get another shot?

I don't have a copy of the contract with me so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but as I recall every crewmember gets one last shot for a total of 3 if his seat goes away. The PFE's are not getting anything any other crewmember would not get.

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

Looks like we aren't the only airline that has OPF wh**es!


http://members.lycos.co.uk/calalpa/RM0G_VJRM.mp3


and this one fits too, great ending!

http://members.lycos.co.uk/calalpa/RM0G_Fatigued.mp3

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but that IS a great find Booger. :beer: I needed a good laugh:laugh: coming out of recurrent. The fatigue one DOES have the perfect ending.

 

[ABXbooger]

I don't have a copy of the contract with me so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but as I recall every crewmember gets one last shot for a total of 3 if his seat goes away. The PFE's are not getting anything any other crewmember would not get.

Yeah, right, keep telling yourself that...

 

[penguin22]

I don't have a copy of the contract with me so I cannot quote chapter and verse, but as I recall every crewmember gets one last shot for a total of 3 if his seat goes away. The PFE's are not getting anything any other crewmember would not get.

You're right, erichartmann. Article 12 section I para 5 says everybody gets a 3rd shot at passing a pro check. I should know better than to believe the first thing I read on FI.com. Seems this place is populated mostly with whiners and b*tchers anyway.

Take for instance open flying. A favorite target on FI.com. It's tempting to get caught up in pissing contests with folks like ABXbooger. He'd probably try to claim the whole reason there's still furloughs on the street is because of open flying. Even though those same trips would just get staffed with more junior manning, not furloughees or new hires.

I can hear him now... "Just don't answer the phone!"

As if that's the only way they can get you, and not letters in the Vfile weeks in advance, or calls to see scheduling when your on duty in ILN.

But he probably thinks its better his way, cause then the junior guys get the extra pay instead of the senior guys. Even though alot of senior guys are doing their "high five" for their retirement pay.

Shouldn't be too much to ask, right? Not only pass up a bigger paycheck this month, but also for the rest of your life once you retire! I bet ABXbooger doesn't see anything wrong with that. Well maybe in 20 years he will.

Sometimes its tempting to get caught up in all the b*tching on FI.com. But I don't think I will.

 

[ABXbooger]

Pretty defensive Penguin, you must really have an ulcer over knowing that the OPF you pick up is hurting one of your "brother teamsters".

Tell yourself all you want, convince yourself that less OPF won't help anyone, sounds like a drug addict saying "it only affects myself, no one else".

Point is there is no way to prove that it won't help.

Point is there is proof that it will help. Have you ever heard of UPS's attempt to furlough 100 back in 93-94 or so? The pilots stepped up and not one, I say again not one was fuloughed.

The union is not for all pilots, just those that matter, huh?

 

[ABXbooger]

As far as the senior guys doing their hi 5, let 'em at it. They earned it, let them build it up.

Don't you realize that this is not just about the most junior guys getting or staying furloughed? You are telling the company that you will allow them to run the airline as shortstaffed as the open flying will allow. You are also prohibiting people from career advancement. All the guys who would like to upgrade to captain or from DC-9 FO to 767 FO or just hold a better line,etc. By flying all the OPF, you are letting the company run those seats shorter.

Fact is, you sit from your perspective justifying your OPF, I sit looking up just wanting to feed my kids and stick around awhile.

It is hard to stomach collecting unemployment when you got guys making your entire salary plus every month.

 

[ABXbooger]

Article 12 section I paragraph 5 states that after failing two Proficiency checks, an additional proficiency check may be requested.

I think the question here is that the PFE's get three complete chances at groundschool, sim etc.

Second Officers who fail to upgrade after their second chance are terminated as per Article 11 section M paragraph 2.

 

[erichartmann]

As far as the senior guys doing their hi 5, let 'em at it. They earned it, let them build it up.

Don't you realize that this is not just about the most junior guys getting or staying furloughed? You are telling the company that you will allow them to run the airline as shortstaffed as the open flying will allow. You are also prohibiting people from career advancement. All the guys who would like to upgrade to captain or from DC-9 FO to 767 FO or just hold a better line,etc. By flying all the OPF, you are letting the company run those seats shorter.

Fact is, you sit from your perspective justifying your OPF, I sit looking up just wanting to feed my kids and stick around awhile.

It is hard to stomach collecting unemployment when you got guys making your entire salary plus every month.

Ok booger, let's look at the open time. Let's say there is enough OT for an additional 20 lines in the DC-9. That means 20 people get Captain's seats, and 20 more get the right seat somewhere. Now what do we have. Instead of the senior people or whoever else can hold it making extra money we have benifited a select few i.e. the 40 who moved to new seats. Additionally we have incurred additional payroll added costs which do not apply for OT, so the total cost of manning the airline has gone up. Joe will undoubtly seek pay cuts if this scenario comes to pass contractually. If it came to pass because as a group the pilot's declined to bid OT the union would wind up in court. If the company failed to crew any flights the court would impose sanctions and fines against the union. This would be true even if the E-board declined to support and actively discouraged the move. The precedent has been set by the courts with APA and AA.

The real problem here is the airline has stagnated for several years, and is now shrinking. I won't insult you by saying I feel your pain, because I don't. I think your solutions are very self serving, selfish, and in a word, stupid. You chose employment in very cyclical industry, albiet one that did not appear so for a while. Anyone who looked at the airline industry as a whole should have been able to recognize that when the freight segment of the industry reached maturity it would become just a subject to the economy as the pax side. Get used to it or go somewhere else.

 

[ABXbooger]

Hey eric, this isn't about me, it's about the 10 or so pilots that we either have furloughed now or soon will. Do you think we could pony up for 10 people? your arguements don't hold water when you are putting people on the street.

 

[ABXbooger]

eric, your post once again proves that this pilot group only cares about one thing.

 

[erichartmann]

eric, your post once again proves that this pilot group only cares about one thing.

I suggest you reread my previous post, & if you are capable of it, think about it some.

 

[ABXbooger]

Wow, that's so, like, seventh grade, ya know?

good post, you admit that getting rid of OPF will creat jobs, thanks. Also everything you say might happen is simply guessing. You have no proof how the company will react. 10 pilots worth of salary is a lot less than what the company pays in OT. How much in OT did you make last year? How many pilots could you have kept working? Who said the union had to make any policy? It's the right thing to do when guys are losing their jobs. Period.

I'm not being selfish, I don't bid open time and won't, I enjoy my time away from work. Unlike you I work so I can go home, not continue to work.

How about this. We make it contractual that whenever there are any pilots on furlough, the open time is reduced enough to allow those pilots to remain working. Hi 5 guys still will be able to max it out. When all pilots are working, the open time goes back to however much the company wants to publish. That way you senior guys get the OPF you richly deserve and the junior guys get to continue to do the job they were hired for.

Thought about it...

 

[penguin22]

Pretty defensive Penguin, you must really have an ulcer over knowing that the OPF you pick up is hurting one of your "brother teamsters".

You give me way too much credit. I don't feel the least bit guilty. But I am doing my high 5, so at least you give me that.

The key is, for it to work here, it would take contractural change as you suggest. As I've said, the way it is now opf would just be replaced with junior manning. And, as I've said, junior manning is very difficult to avoid. We can't just simply say no. So your UPS example falls short. You need to get it in the contract that we can turn down a junior man assignment. Good luck with that, by the way.

 

[DC-9er]

Can anybody confirm a rumor I heard last night about all the SOs being given class dates after all?