About, JetBlue 190 pay

[General Lee]

jbucapt,


What? You really do hate ALPA. They aren't based on economics----you guys are doing well. They are based off of you not having a union to vote it down. They (your buddies at manamgement) are taking advantage of employees that aren't event here yet, knowing that you (on the bus) won't care. It is a classic slap in the face---and you can't even see it....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jbucpt]

jbucapt,


What? You really do hate ALPA. They aren't based on economics----you guys are doing well. They are based off of you not having a union to vote it down. They (your buddies at manamgement) are taking advantage of employees that aren't event here yet, knowing that you (on the bus) won't care. It is a classic slap in the face---and you can't even see it....

Bye Bye--General Lee

explain to me why YOUR DALPA will be GIVING BACK your INDUSTRY LEADING PAY? (as well as UNITED, AMERICAN, USAIR ETC, ETC, ETC) what economic scale did you boys use giving the state of the industry then and for future perdictions during your contract negotiations??

as you will find out personally (as jim parker learned the hard way), the economics of this industry in the present does not allow yield control. let me explain this so you will understand. it means; they have to control cost to maintain A PROFIT MARGIN.

do i want to follow your lead and give back my pay? or do i want to follow the southwest pilots and start low and gradually go higher??

do i hate alpa. maybe, after being an LEC i show the reality of it. and that is; ALPA is not a brotherhood "PROTECTING THE PROFESSION" IT IS A BUSINESS. AND YOU WILL FIND THAT OUT THE HARD WAY.
--------

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

 

[InclusiveScope]

jbucapt,


What? You really do hate ALPA. They aren't based on economics----you guys are doing well. They are based off of you not having a union to vote it down. They (your buddies at manamgement) are taking advantage of employees that aren't event here yet, knowing that you (on the bus) won't care. It is a classic slap in the face---and you can't even see it....

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
The lowest RJ rates are at USAirways and MESA. Both are ALPA. Are the low rates at USAirways and MESA due to "not having a union to vote it down"?

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

so please do me a favor and quit. (which you will never do) we have over 8000 pilots who want your seat.

It's that mentality that allows Dave and David to throw out these embarrassing rates. Well, if 'Joe' won't fly for these rates, we've got thousands on the other side of the glass who would love to come in and do it.

Your economics 101 reference is correct, and sad. Like the saying goes, we can always find an a$$ to fill every seat.

Your attack on flyatnight is uncalled for, jbucpt. It's nice to be able to sit high on your pedistal (not that high by the way) and look down since you'll never have to fly the -190 for that POS rate. You know the rates are too low.....everyone does. So why don't you do the right thing for your fellow and future brothers at jetBlue, grow some balls and stand up for whats right......

 

[taxionewire]

"So, you can keep kicking JB and thinking that the glorious airline career is out there waiting on you. As for me, I'll just be happy to have landed a job in this environment."

Thank goodness you weren't leading any group of pilots 70 years ago. There never would have been that fabulous pilot career.

 

[iflynights]

Heywood,

Thanks for the support. Some of these guys think the rates are OK since they will never fly the 190. I will easily make captain before the first 190 shows up, but that still doesn't make it OK. Economics (supply and demand of pilots) allows 8000+ pilots to apply here for these dismal pay rates, but that certainly doesn't make it right. The leaders at jetblue talk values, do the right thing, etc., but they want to pay their pilots like city bus drivers. Let me get this straight, I never advocated paying AMR rates (even after the huge paycut) but 72 bucks an hour for a 100 seat jet is not right. I would have thought starting at $90 would be reasonable and this give them a 30-40% advantage over most other carriers. $90 is very, very low paid, but for a high growth company that people are willing to invest their future, it is reasonable. Just like SWA, hopefully there would be a payoff in the end.

Dizel, I am applying and hope to hear from another company soon. Then I will resign and leave you and many of your obviously blind coworkers to sell out your lower seniority pilots.

 

[lowecur]

Dizel, I am applying and hope to hear from another company soon. Then I will resign and leave you and many of your obviously blind coworkers to sell out your lower seniority pilots. I admire your principals, but not your foresight. You will be a very unhappy pilot anywhere you go in the next 5 years, as rates will continue to fall. Hope your family feels as strongly as you do.

.....

 

[Dizel8]

iflynights says:"Dizel, I am applying and hope to hear from another company soon. Then I will resign and leave you and many of your obviously blind coworkers to sell out your lower seniority pilots."

Well, I truly wish you the very best of luck and that you will find that dreamjob. Let us know how it works out, so we all can apply!

Not sure who you call blind, as for me, I have been around this crazy business a bit and have learned a few things along the way. Changes happen.

 

[General Lee]

Hey everyone! jbucapt saw 9-11 coming! That's right---he saw 9-11 coming before anyone else, and he didn't tell anyone!


jbucapt,

Well, let's see now. We had 500 or more planes sitting around with no passengers for a few months, and then the economy tanked. Hmmmmm. I guess we should have seen that coming too. You are an idiot. We brought up the wages for everyone and actually kept them there for as long as we could. Our leader Leo Mullin had some bad strategies--like waiting for USAir to go Chap 7 and not doing anything in the mean time. Then our new leaders sold the fuel hedges, when they really didn't have to (due to Pension reform), That was our fault too. So what should we do now? We have alot of debt and we either give back some money or surely go into Chap 11. I guess you wouldn't give any back...... You really are dumb. Is ALPA to blame for our future give backs? No! Our leaders have thrown us into this--we just drive the bus! The bad economy and 9-11 also hurt us---but you knew that..... It's all ALPA's fault.....


Inclusivescope,

USAir was faced with economic problems, but the Mesa guys were swindled and ALPA did they best they could with that. In the end--it is the pilots who have to vote---not the union. The union can bring them a TA--and if they do NOT like it--they have to do it again. The Jetblue guys didn't even have that option----and I bet you knew that too... I can't believe you can't see the difference---the Jetblue guys didn't even know the rates until they were already posted....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jbucpt]

Hey everyone! jbucapt saw 9-11 coming! That's right---he saw 9-11 coming before anyone else, and he didn't tell anyone!


jbucapt,

Well, let's see now. We had 500 or more planes sitting around with no passengers for a few months, and then the economy tanked. Hmmmmm. I guess we should have seen that coming too. You are an idiot. We brought up the wages for everyone and actually kept them there for as long as we could. Our leader Leo Mullin had some bad strategies--like waiting for USAir to go Chap 7 and not doing anything in the mean time. Then our new leaders sold the fuel hedges, when they really didn't have to (due to Pension reform), That was our fault too. So what should we do now? We have alot of debt and we either give back some money or surely go into Chap 11. I guess you wouldn't give any back...... You really are dumb. Is ALPA to blame for our future give backs? No! Our leaders have thrown us into this--we just drive the bus! The bad economy and 9-11 also hurt us---but you knew that..... It's all ALPA's fault.....


Inclusivescope,

USAir was faced with economic problems, but the Mesa guys were swindled and ALPA did they best they could with that. In the end--it is the pilots who have to vote---not the union. The union can bring them a TA--and if they do NOT like it--they have to do it again. The Jetblue guys didn't even have that option----and I bet you knew that too... I can't believe you can't see the difference---the Jetblue guys didn't even know the rates until they were already posted....

Bye Bye--General Lee

i thought you were a delta alpa pilot and not a united airlines manager. (trying to have you and me pay for their mismanagement by blaming it all on 9-11)

you need to get a reality check along with "iflyatnight" on the state of this industry. 9-11 is NOT TO BLAME for delta's, united, american's 2004's lose's.

in 2000, the economy was already going down-hill (which your industry leading contract never took into consideration) jetblue was already flying out of JFK, and airtran was growing.... (did your dalpa ever consider those issues???)

the legacy carrier's 2004 loses are due to out of control cost i.e. fuel, labor, inefficient hub and spoke system, along with the retarded idea's of trying to maintain a LCC within an airline. (you still haven't PROVEN that the BIG GREEN SPERM has made a profit.) oh thats right, the airplane's are FULL, that means we're making money??!!

i might be an idiot, but you are NAIVE to believe that 9-11 is the reason delta and the rest of the industry is losing money 3 years later.

-------

"We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has."

 

[Dizel8]

General says:"USAir was faced with economic problems."

But that does not make them any less of a competitor. U have seen plenty of carriers move into their markets SWA, AA including a ton of Eagle flights, jetblue, DAL including Song and Comair, Airtran, IAIR etc. U has probably seen the largest frontal assault of anyone and they are fighting back. Of course, they should have begun the fight just after BWI, but hindsight is 20/20.

They went for Eagle pay on the 170, so that they would be competetive with Eagle and lower than quite a few carriers that fly RJs, including Comair. Yes, they had to because of problems, but that still does not negate, that they in effect are still setting the "bar" on the EMB jet, and according to you, the rate for all of us. Sure, we could all price higher, but then U has the advantage with lower fares and they will gain more customers. For the U pilots, the low rate they offer, further means, that they get first shot at flying the MAA EMB, which in this enviroment is a god thing.

If DAL wants to capture further marketshare from U, and I think they do, they will have to be competetive on price, which probably means, that the RJ rate is too high, since both Eagle and U flies at lower rates than Comair.

(Iflynights: The above is not an endorsement of the 190 pay at jetblue)

 

[surplus1]

Inclusivescope,

To get more pay, you should strive to fly larger planes at larger airlines, not bring down larger aircraft destined for the mainline to your airline. I can understand that some people like their seniority and weekends off at their regionals---but if they want better pay and better perks--they should try to move on. That is just the truth.

Really? And just who decided all that General, you? Why do we have to fly larger planes at larger airlines to improve our pay and working conditions? Why can't we make that improvement at our own airline and keep our own seniority? Who ordained that things must stay inferior where we work so they can be better where you work and that we have to "move on"? So what if we don't have 747's, why can't you leave it to us to decide what we fly and when or if we chose to move on? Who set you all up to tell us what we should do or when we should do it?

No my friend, that is not the "truth". That's the ALPA recepie of apartheid and descrimination created by members of your club to maintain the illusion that you all are from the superior class and in control. It's the "plantation mentality", except this isn't 1850 and we're not on ALPA's plantation.

We haven't brought anything that you do down. In fact at my airline we have raised everything up, inspite of the best efforts of you and our union to prevent us from doing that. Now because you find that you have "overreached" and may have to come down a peg or two because you can't sell your cotton, you want to accomplish that by telling us what airplane we should not fly, while the union attempts to staff the airplanes we do have with crews from your airline and others like it.

The only reason you are chagrined is because the union has discovered that not all of us fell off a turnip truck and not all of us are willing to swallow the BS they put out in Herndon.

Yes, the JBlue rates will hurt us just like they hurt you. That's not a reason for us to move to your airline and its not a reason for us to let you move to our airplanes either. You're doing a good job of trying to keep your rates up. We are doing and equally good job of keeping our rates up. Since you think the flying that we do is so inferior, why do you keep trying to take it and to put yourselves into our cockpits by force? Why don't you just stay where you are and stop meddleing in our affairs?

Instead of worrying about why we should move up to your airline and how you will move down to our airplanes, we should both be trying to figure out how to keep ALPA from undercuting us more in and effort to transfer regional jobs to mainline pilots. Isn't that what you've been telling us ... that you may lower your rates so that you can get our aircraft types transferred to you?

If you want the truth, the truth is that if ALPA had not low balled the rates at USAirways, maybe JBlue would not have low-balled its rates to match USAirways.

Lets don't overlook that the man who agreed to give up the USAirways pilots longevity and low ball the rates for them and for every regional, was rewarded by election to National office and now sits beside the other three ineffective leaders at the head of our union. Together they have done more to divide the profession than any group in its history.

We don't need to "move" anywhere to get better pay. What we need is better leaders whose policies are designed to improve the lot of all of us instead of dividing us and attempting to maintain a two tier system that they, with your help, created. If ALPA had spent 1/3 of the time improving regional agreements that it has spent writing predatory scope clauses, the disparity between us would not exist and YOU wouldn't have to worry that we might drag you down. Maybe if ALPA had not prevented logical mergers, with your help, and created alter egos with artificial restrictions, you would not be in the trouble you are and we would not have to fear the risks created by your nonsense.

The fact is we haven't dragged down anything. It has been forced down by the nonsensical behavior of the very union we hired to make it better, and the phony attitudes of superiority eminating from the mainline bunch. You are the victims of your own wrongdoing. Don't blame it on us, and don't be so eager to drag us down with you. Especially when the "real truth" is that you now want for youselves what "little" you are always reminding us that we have.

There is more than one perspective, isn't there?

 

[blahshmah]

iflynights - I understand your frustration at the rates, and more importantly, the hypocritical message these rates send with regard to "doing the right thing." I'm very dissapointed in the rates and the message this sends to us. Take a step back before making any drastic decisions like leaving a young company in the growing years for a company in the mature years. Sure, the mature companies (SWA, FDX) can provide you the benefits you want now but remember to step back and look at the potential (and risk) that comes with staying with JB. I'm sure a couple decades ago there was a SWA pilot or two that made the crazy decision to go (and stay) at SWA over the Braniffs and AMRs of the day. If you leave, how will you feel if JB 320 and 190 pilots get a raise next year? Dizel opened up this contract dialogue and I haven't seen him defend these rates. In fact he doesn't like them just as we don't so maybe ya need to back off on him.


JbuCpt- Yes, you understand the economics that have helped JB be profitable in these early years and yes it is important, but so is high morale. In fact I'd say high morale amongst our crewmembers is very important, at least I've heard a David or two say so. Blowing off concerns or dismissing them is no way to communicate, even amongst co-workers. Sometimes demands can't be met but acting uncaring and even worse, attacking iflynights as you did, is uncalled for. Perhaps you should consider some POL training before you put your name in the hat for that ACP job.

I wonder what was going on at SWA at year 5? 10? 15? 20? I wonder how many pilots frustrated with the early years at SWA left for greener pastures???
---thinking outloud again---

 

[General Lee]

jbucapt,


Ok, wait a second. You are blaming ALPA for bringing down the excessively high rates that we have. Those rates were established when things were going GREAT. Our C2K contract---meaning our 2000 Contract---was created when we had high profits, and things were "dandy." Then, right after that, our management bought back $2.5 billion in stock, which evaportated overnight after 9-11 and the resulting stock tumble. With that stock tumble, came a worsening economy--which resulted in passengers not spending as much money and business passengers not flying as much. We then furloughed 1300 pilots as a result, and then the Iraq War hit and oil prices jumped. There were a lot of things going on here that were not our fault, and we did offer some relief--which could have helped. Then our management mistakenly sold off the fuel hedges when they didn't have to. Where is this ALPA's fault? We are negotiating today for things that were not our fault--because we have to---not because we want to. I am not using "United's excuse"--since United was already hurting before 9-11. We were not. Our excuse is bad leadership from Leo and Fred Greed. We would have given them some money back--but they had no plan and seemed to be waiting for USAir's demise, which never really happened. We then ordered too many RJs and parked the MD-11s early--which was a mistake (according to our VP of marketing)---there were plenty of blunders made and none by ALPA---they offered some help when they didn't have to (contract not up at the time) and have kept the bar up at the same time. You really should be more thankful, but you're not....

Surplus1,

Come on my friend---everyone knows that the better pay and better perks are usually found at the larger airlines. I am not putting down yours, but we will always have better pay and perks than you. If you would like to attain those same things---you must be willing to try to move up. If not, then you will be limited on what you will get. Is there a limit to what size airplanes your airline should have? Yes, and you should want that--unless you want to fly 747s for Comair wages. Your management (and mine) would love that. It would have been great had ALPA initially figured out that the 50 seat RJs should have been at mainline---and then more of you would be over here enjoying the benefits you cannot attain currently. But, ALPA messed that up--and I think most people see that. But, what is done is done, and now we need to keep from allowing the larger planes to go DOWN to Comair and watch the benefits and resulting pay go down too. The jetblue rates will have an affect---but those planes at mainline will still carry better wages (maybe slightly) and better benefits with us. I, personally, would support a staple and have you come up or all of you become attached---which would help all of us. We shall see....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[1-tacan-rule]

This thread is really starting to make me sick. For all you Economics Professor wanna-be's, you should realize that this all comes back to the lesson you learned in your first econ class....you remember....SUPPLY AND F'ING DEMAND. The airlines (an airline) can pay exactly what they want as long as they have a line of guys willing to accept that pay....PERIOD. What is so hard to understand about that? Secondly, stop slinging all the "we're a brotherhood" bull because I don't buy it. We all have little mouths to feed, we all have wives to keep happy and girlfriends to keep quiet...and we all like driving our flying machines with no real attachment to a 'boss' and enjoying certain perks like the travel benefits and the occasional proclamation at the little league ball park when asked what you do..."oh me, I'm an airline pilot." So lets just be happy getting what we can from our employer and stop blaming pilots at other airlines for screwing our w-2 forms.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus1,

Come on my friend---everyone knows that the better pay and better perks are usually found at the larger airlines. I am not putting down yours, but we will always have better pay and perks than you. If you would like to attain those same things---you must be willing to try to move up.

General,

That's baloney plain and simple. The problem with you is that you're still living in yesterday. You can't seem to get yourself to acknowledge that times have changed and will change more.

This thread is about JBlue's new pay rate and its impact on the rest of us. In case you failed to notice, both of the airplanes, the one they now fly and the one they will fly in the future, are considerably larger that the one's that we fly. If this pay scale sticks, they will eventually be flying 100 of their "larger" airplanes that all pay less than we make now. We already have better work rules and equal or better perks. Exactly what is it that we should aspire to move up to?

The key words in your remarks are "usually found" and "always better". Both are historical and do not represent the future. Sure there will be more pay for the 747 than the CR7 and there should be. However, there should not be less pay for the EMB-170/190. There now is. You at Delta currently have better work rules than we do and I hope you can keep them. United once did too and ours are now better than theirs and better that AAA's. It is still left to be seen what you will have left in porportion to us once your concessionary bargaining is over.

Your planes are bigger so I expect you will still be paid more and you should be. The real question is what will you accept in your effort to get the "small planes" that you do not have now; you know, the one's that we have. Will you undecut us to get them? I wouldn't be surprised to see you try.

SWA pilots fly only 737's. For years people like you have disparaged them because their airline doesn't own any 777's, they don't have an "A" plan, and they didn't join ALPO, just like you disparage us because we don't operate any 767's or 737's. Your egotistical and arrogant attitudes show clearly through the veneer of your civility. Don't tell me that you aren't "putting down" because that's all you folks have ever done... to every and anyone who doesn't do what you do or think as you do. It's tireing and the truth is it has no purpose other than to create the illusion of superiority that you all harbor and would like us to believe and accept. It's not going to happen GL, we know that you really aren't "different", you just think you are.

Before very long you will be flying your 737's for close to the same thing that JBlue flies its A320s and your DC-9s for pay and benefits similar to those of AirTran. Your ability to retain your famous "A" plan is in serious doubt and for the first time ever you may actually have to put some "hard time" in the cockpit, in lieu of being paid for 85 hours but flying 36. I don't blame you for being upset about it, but that's reality. Your gravy train is running dry.

I'm not happy that these things are happening and I wish they were not. I wish we could restore the "status quo" of yesterday, but I know that we can't do that in the current environment. You don't seem to have grasped that and neither have your peers. Like it or not, there has been a sea change and you will be caught in the waves just like the rest of us. We can and should all be sympathetic to each others plight. That's why the constant "crowing" grates the craw of those who have to listen to you all. My friend, the FOX is in your hen house too.

The fact is General that the prospect of what will be left for the inferior beings to "move up" to is no longer bright. Therefore, people like me need to worry about hanging on to what we already have as opposed to drinking more Kool Aid about how much better you have it. Your lifestyle is about to change.

The sad part is that the "new" compensation at USAirways and JBlue may cause our lifestyle to change as well. I don't blame folks like you personally for this, but I do blame the policies of the alleged labor union to which we both belong. It has been directed down the wrong path by your peers who are its "leaders" and now, WE ... all of us, will be paying the price for the foreseable future.

But, what is done is done, and now we need to keep from allowing the larger planes to go DOWN to Comair and watch the benefits and resulting pay go down too.

Yes, what's done is done. However, given the "new pay rates" at AAA and JBlue for the "larger planes" and given Comair's pay rates for the "smaller planes", it appears that YOU would have fared better if the "larger planes" were at Comair where the compensation would have gone UP, than you will by having them at Jet Blue and U, where it has gone down, way down. It is left to be seen how much YOU will undercut Comair's compensation in your effort to get what we already have and prevent us from getting more. Will you "match" JB to keep the larger planes or will you maintain your super high compensation and superior perks while you watch them go somewhere else? Will you help the Company into bankruptcy or will you match American, UAL, AAA, JBlue and AirTran?

The JetBlue rates will have an affect---but those planes at mainline will still carry better wages (maybe slightly) and better benefits with us.

That's left to be seen isn't it? If as you say those planes "at mainline" will carry
slightly better wages and benefits, then that means you are prepared to underbid the likes of Comair, where smaller planes already carry significantly better wages and benefits. Whose eyes are you trying to pull the wool over?

I, personally, would support a staple and have you come up or all of you become attached---which would help all of us. We shall see....

Would a staple help all of us equally or would it help you more? Would you be saying the same thing if you did not have over 1000 furloughed pilots with the potential for more? Don't you think we can see through your change of heart?You've already had your shot at a merger and you turned it down flat because you wanted no part of the likes of us. How come you're having a new attitude now that you're in trouble? When are you going to tell me that you feel different because you're sorry for us and you want to give us a chance to move up? Must be a new round of generosity on your part, right? General, you remind me of a convict who suddenly gets religion, right after the jail door slams shut. We shall see indeed.