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Abex
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WrightAvia
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My partner I fly with, just told me his brother (a captain with fedex) said that they are seriously going to replace 3 crew 727 flying with 2 pilot crew airplanes at fedex. Leaving a long period of no hiring at fedex.
I think freight is doing ok...but I think things are going to remain tight at the big freight haulers.
I know this doesn't have much to do with ABX... but to tell you the truth, I heard they other night from some MKE rampies, ABX was going to move out of MKE and fedex is probably going to suck up their ramp space for the DC-10 that is going to be coming in instead of some other smaller plane or in addition to their normal flights.
I think freight is doing ok...but I think things are going to remain tight at the big freight haulers.
I know this doesn't have much to do with ABX... but to tell you the truth, I heard they other night from some MKE rampies, ABX was going to move out of MKE and fedex is probably going to suck up their ramp space for the DC-10 that is going to be coming in instead of some other smaller plane or in addition to their normal flights.
Last edited:
WrightAvia
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I don't know where you are getting this info on ABX. They are very strong right now. In fact, they just got a new contract and were bought by DHL. ABX is going to be no longer guys!!!! It will be DHL. They are in a very strange time and will be over the next 6 months, but then things will iron out and ABX as an airline will be DHL. HOwever, for marketing it will be ABX on the ground. go to the DHL or ABX web site to read more. ENJOY!
Buckeye
Member
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- Feb 3, 2003
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- 364
ABEX / DHL Deal for Dummies
Pretend that there are two different companies, one is Airborne Express and the other is ABEX Air Inc. Airborne Express Inc is the company that owns the airport the vans that deliver the freight and the buildings...etc...etc...etc. Then there is this other company called ABEX Air Inc they have the actual 121 certificate the aircraft and the pilots. DHL bought Airborne Express the non airline side, what we might call the logistics side. Now ABEX the airline side is looking at to enter an ACMI agreement with DHL under a 10 year cost plus deal. It must be a good deal because I believe that once the teamsters and the pilots figured it out they were all on board with the idea. So Pretend time is over, this is the reality of the situation....So please stay tuned as bigger and better things are happening at ABEX Air Inc.
Pretend that there are two different companies, one is Airborne Express and the other is ABEX Air Inc. Airborne Express Inc is the company that owns the airport the vans that deliver the freight and the buildings...etc...etc...etc. Then there is this other company called ABEX Air Inc they have the actual 121 certificate the aircraft and the pilots. DHL bought Airborne Express the non airline side, what we might call the logistics side. Now ABEX the airline side is looking at to enter an ACMI agreement with DHL under a 10 year cost plus deal. It must be a good deal because I believe that once the teamsters and the pilots figured it out they were all on board with the idea. So Pretend time is over, this is the reality of the situation....So please stay tuned as bigger and better things are happening at ABEX Air Inc.
LR25
Its just a vintage VW
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
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- 1,641
Re: Van Ride...
I did read where ASTAR cargo recently purcharsed 10 727's for immediate cargo conversion - to add to their 40 a/c. I believe the DC-9 "front door" way of loading containers will lead to ABX's failure IF they refuse to convert the inefficent loading system the currenty operate under to a "normal" cargo door with BIG containers....
I doubt it. ABX only has a handfull of freighters. We have over a hundred A/C. Someone will have to dish out millions for other A/C if they do not use ABX for the lift.
I'm not saying its not an impossible venture, but why would someone do that when there is perfectly good lift allready in place.
At this time, I think DHL "Astar" needs us, as much as we need them.
I could be wrong though, they could send all the Douglas's to the desert, but I doubt it, and all the 67's ABX has would also be useless, except for making beer cans.
I did read where ASTAR cargo recently purcharsed 10 727's for immediate cargo conversion - to add to their 40 a/c. I believe the DC-9 "front door" way of loading containers will lead to ABX's failure IF they refuse to convert the inefficent loading system the currenty operate under to a "normal" cargo door with BIG containers....
I doubt it. ABX only has a handfull of freighters. We have over a hundred A/C. Someone will have to dish out millions for other A/C if they do not use ABX for the lift.
I'm not saying its not an impossible venture, but why would someone do that when there is perfectly good lift allready in place.
At this time, I think DHL "Astar" needs us, as much as we need them.
I could be wrong though, they could send all the Douglas's to the desert, but I doubt it, and all the 67's ABX has would also be useless, except for making beer cans.
I would like to clarify a few things on this thread. To begin with ABX Air is now an independent ACMI carrier since it was spun off as a result of DHL's purchase of Airborne Freight. Astar (formerly DHL Airways) is essentially the same type of company. ABX doesn't contract with Astar, our major customer now is DHL. DHL, ABX and Astar are three separate companies. We must be separate (i.e. not owned by DHL) because federal law prohibits a foreign owned company from owning more than 25% of a U.S. domestic airline.
With that being said, I'll give my own opinion as to what the future holds. For the most part, the pilots at ABX are optimistic about the future of the company. Yes, there is some worry about the pending lawsuit that the Astar pilots (ALPA) have with DHL. They are basically claiming that all of the freight brought to the table by Airborne Freight is now their's to haul. Obviously we disagree. If their suit is successful, the net result would be that the 750 or so pilots at ABX would lose their jobs. Based on the information that our union and the company has provided, I personally feel that their suit will fail. Should that be the case, I think that they will then be in a rather precarious postion for these reasons:
1) They just sued their primary customer.
2) Astar's costs are higher that ABX's on a per shipment basis. Their contract with DHL is on a cost plus basis which is about 5.5% higher than that of the ABX contract with DHL.
3) The ABX network is much larger and system capacity is much greater.
4) The performance rating for Abx is consistently around 97% as compared to Astar's rating of around 84%.
5) ABX is a Cat II airline with the 767's being Cat III capable. Astar is a Cat I airline. This difference can be crutial to dispatch reliability.
I think the Astar's union should have explored other options in the name of cooperation with ABX rather than try to put it out of business. With the marketing that DHL has begun and has promised to continue, I think that there would have been enough growth to go around. Instead, they have chosen to swing for the fence. Time will tell.
With that being said, I'll give my own opinion as to what the future holds. For the most part, the pilots at ABX are optimistic about the future of the company. Yes, there is some worry about the pending lawsuit that the Astar pilots (ALPA) have with DHL. They are basically claiming that all of the freight brought to the table by Airborne Freight is now their's to haul. Obviously we disagree. If their suit is successful, the net result would be that the 750 or so pilots at ABX would lose their jobs. Based on the information that our union and the company has provided, I personally feel that their suit will fail. Should that be the case, I think that they will then be in a rather precarious postion for these reasons:
1) They just sued their primary customer.
2) Astar's costs are higher that ABX's on a per shipment basis. Their contract with DHL is on a cost plus basis which is about 5.5% higher than that of the ABX contract with DHL.
3) The ABX network is much larger and system capacity is much greater.
4) The performance rating for Abx is consistently around 97% as compared to Astar's rating of around 84%.
5) ABX is a Cat II airline with the 767's being Cat III capable. Astar is a Cat I airline. This difference can be crutial to dispatch reliability.
I think the Astar's union should have explored other options in the name of cooperation with ABX rather than try to put it out of business. With the marketing that DHL has begun and has promised to continue, I think that there would have been enough growth to go around. Instead, they have chosen to swing for the fence. Time will tell.
AV8OR
Well-known member
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- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 696
Mailman wrote...
"I hope they can make this "evolution" before DHL/ASTAR cargo scews them over......like the 2,900 U.S. truck drivers DHL recently fired......"
As an ASTAR pilot, let me just respond to this on two points...
1. Yes the DHL drivers took a royal screwing from DHLWE and DPWN. We don't intend on getting the same treatment.
2. ASTAR isn't trying to screw ABX pilots out of anything. We do, however have a thing called a contract that DHLWE, that's the ground company, signed with us that specifically makes them beholden to our scope clause. Now, I'm sorry if the management of ABF and DHLWE/DP blew sunshine up your ass about how great things would be on your latest contract, but just understand this, our scope clause with DHLWE exsisted before your contract did with DHL, so, I think we are just enforcing our contract.
Abexpilot wrote......
"1) They just sued their primary customer.
2) Astar's costs are higher that ABX's on a per shipment basis. Their contract with DHL is on a cost plus basis which is about 5.5% higher than that of the ABX contract with DHL.
3) The ABX network is much larger and system capacity is much greater.
4) The performance rating for Abx is consistently around 97% as compared to Astar's rating of around 84%.
5) ABX is a Cat II airline with the 767's being Cat III capable. Astar is a Cat I airline. This difference can be crutial to dispatch reliability."
Point (1).....You need to understand that John Fellows at DHL is a lying sorry sack who knowingly violated our scope once with the NWA cargo route they fly and he got caught and was given grace by the arbitrator. He doesn't give a tinker's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about ASTAR ABX or anybody else, and if we lose our scope clause lawsuit, ASTAR will be the least of ALL our worries because you will see Kitty Hawk, Express One, et al, on DHL ramps. Also, I don't know what ANX management has told you but the basis upon which ABX management's countersuit rests, if won, would invalidate every ALPA contract at every ALPA airline. Possible but not likely.
#2. I guarantee you with your new contract and the cost of running your own airport, your costs are higher.
#4. 84%? What, did Joe tell yall that. Uh ya might want to check into that it's around 98.5%.
#5. Cat II vs. Cat I....so how come more airlines are going away from CAT II not towards it?
Look guys if things go south for either airline it's gonna be because DHLWE screwed us and no other reason. Our CEO, John Dasburgh testified at the DOT that he wanted and tried to buy you guys when DHL bought the ground side but DHLWE would not allow it. Now why do you think that is? So they could screw us all by playing us off one another. Does the name Emery ring a bell? When the smoke clears we'll just have to see who's standing.
"I hope they can make this "evolution" before DHL/ASTAR cargo scews them over......like the 2,900 U.S. truck drivers DHL recently fired......"
As an ASTAR pilot, let me just respond to this on two points...
1. Yes the DHL drivers took a royal screwing from DHLWE and DPWN. We don't intend on getting the same treatment.
2. ASTAR isn't trying to screw ABX pilots out of anything. We do, however have a thing called a contract that DHLWE, that's the ground company, signed with us that specifically makes them beholden to our scope clause. Now, I'm sorry if the management of ABF and DHLWE/DP blew sunshine up your ass about how great things would be on your latest contract, but just understand this, our scope clause with DHLWE exsisted before your contract did with DHL, so, I think we are just enforcing our contract.
Abexpilot wrote......
"1) They just sued their primary customer.
2) Astar's costs are higher that ABX's on a per shipment basis. Their contract with DHL is on a cost plus basis which is about 5.5% higher than that of the ABX contract with DHL.
3) The ABX network is much larger and system capacity is much greater.
4) The performance rating for Abx is consistently around 97% as compared to Astar's rating of around 84%.
5) ABX is a Cat II airline with the 767's being Cat III capable. Astar is a Cat I airline. This difference can be crutial to dispatch reliability."
Point (1).....You need to understand that John Fellows at DHL is a lying sorry sack who knowingly violated our scope once with the NWA cargo route they fly and he got caught and was given grace by the arbitrator. He doesn't give a tinker's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** about ASTAR ABX or anybody else, and if we lose our scope clause lawsuit, ASTAR will be the least of ALL our worries because you will see Kitty Hawk, Express One, et al, on DHL ramps. Also, I don't know what ANX management has told you but the basis upon which ABX management's countersuit rests, if won, would invalidate every ALPA contract at every ALPA airline. Possible but not likely.
#2. I guarantee you with your new contract and the cost of running your own airport, your costs are higher.
#4. 84%? What, did Joe tell yall that. Uh ya might want to check into that it's around 98.5%.
#5. Cat II vs. Cat I....so how come more airlines are going away from CAT II not towards it?
Look guys if things go south for either airline it's gonna be because DHLWE screwed us and no other reason. Our CEO, John Dasburgh testified at the DOT that he wanted and tried to buy you guys when DHL bought the ground side but DHLWE would not allow it. Now why do you think that is? So they could screw us all by playing us off one another. Does the name Emery ring a bell? When the smoke clears we'll just have to see who's standing.
Meat n the Seat
Active member
- Joined
- Mar 22, 2003
- Posts
- 38
Gentleman, Deutche Post wants to whipsaw us against one another. Its simple. Eventually, the pilot groups will come together . The mood at Astar is one of cautious optimism. Many of us have worked here at DHL approaching 20 years. Yes we have a scope clause covering domestic DHL frieight, Our attepts at dialouge with DP to work a ammenable agreement went unanswered, as did our attepts at communication with thr IBT pilot leadership at ABX. Relax we'll work it out fellas. 84%??? surely you jest. We need each other. Lets hug. Forget all about this funky s**t and learn how to play guitar.
<<ASTAR isn't trying to screw ABX pilots out of anything>>
There is a huge difference between 'defending' your work and attempting to 'steal' the job of another union brother. ALPA's claim is they want all of their old work, plus all of our's too. (The sad part is they admitted in court they'd try to screww the other union even if they too were ALPA.)
After the merger announcement, the 1224 President said any integration of the pilots would be "fair and equitable", no theft by taking. In other words we are (were?) going to act like gentlemen. Astar MEC's escalation indicates they want to play winner take all. With this aggression, should the ABX Air pilots take fair & equitable off the table and do unto others as they are trying to do to you?
The new Teamster Scope Clause is the best in the industry and is air tight with the exception of 2 or 3 holes you could drive a MAC truck through. True your contract has paragraphs labelled Scope and Successorship. But your scope sucks. That's not a personal attack...just don't bet your mortgage on your '98 language.
ABX's intervention/argument (not 1224's) in the ALPA vs. DHL suit has no legs at all. It is a longshot. Eventually it will get kicked back to the judge to rule on whether arbitration is required. Our union will then be forced to attack your case to defend our jobs....we have been put in a sh!tty position. Thanks, we are supposed to be on the same team.
If you win, you can't possibly accept the remedy you have requested. (You don't have the lift.) So it will 1) force a merger of airlines or 2) our flights will slowly be shifted to you and eventually 800 pilots will be furloughed. BUT if you should lose this big bet your leadership is so willing to make, then a third option becomes open: 3) shifting your work to us and they pull the same cr@p on you that they did to your drivers.
As an objective person ask yourself WHY is ALPA swinging for the fence on this one? Believe it or not ALPA doesn't give a sh!t about you personally. They only care about their dues revenue. With furloughs, pay cuts, affiliation attrition they have taken it on the chin. Now they are assuming they have already lost any future Teamster vs. ALPA election by the score of 800 to 500. (BTW Bad assumption). So ALPA feels like they have nothing to lose and if they win they go from losing 500 dues payers to gaining 800 dues payers.
Despite this kick in the balls, the ABX pilots are generally positive and continue to want cooperate with the Astar pilots to grow, upgrade, kick purple&brown a$$, and get rich. But gosh boys, you are really making it hard to sit in a circle and 'play guitar.'
There is a huge difference between 'defending' your work and attempting to 'steal' the job of another union brother. ALPA's claim is they want all of their old work, plus all of our's too. (The sad part is they admitted in court they'd try to screww the other union even if they too were ALPA.)
After the merger announcement, the 1224 President said any integration of the pilots would be "fair and equitable", no theft by taking. In other words we are (were?) going to act like gentlemen. Astar MEC's escalation indicates they want to play winner take all. With this aggression, should the ABX Air pilots take fair & equitable off the table and do unto others as they are trying to do to you?
The new Teamster Scope Clause is the best in the industry and is air tight with the exception of 2 or 3 holes you could drive a MAC truck through. True your contract has paragraphs labelled Scope and Successorship. But your scope sucks. That's not a personal attack...just don't bet your mortgage on your '98 language.
ABX's intervention/argument (not 1224's) in the ALPA vs. DHL suit has no legs at all. It is a longshot. Eventually it will get kicked back to the judge to rule on whether arbitration is required. Our union will then be forced to attack your case to defend our jobs....we have been put in a sh!tty position. Thanks, we are supposed to be on the same team.
If you win, you can't possibly accept the remedy you have requested. (You don't have the lift.) So it will 1) force a merger of airlines or 2) our flights will slowly be shifted to you and eventually 800 pilots will be furloughed. BUT if you should lose this big bet your leadership is so willing to make, then a third option becomes open: 3) shifting your work to us and they pull the same cr@p on you that they did to your drivers.
As an objective person ask yourself WHY is ALPA swinging for the fence on this one? Believe it or not ALPA doesn't give a sh!t about you personally. They only care about their dues revenue. With furloughs, pay cuts, affiliation attrition they have taken it on the chin. Now they are assuming they have already lost any future Teamster vs. ALPA election by the score of 800 to 500. (BTW Bad assumption). So ALPA feels like they have nothing to lose and if they win they go from losing 500 dues payers to gaining 800 dues payers.
Despite this kick in the balls, the ABX pilots are generally positive and continue to want cooperate with the Astar pilots to grow, upgrade, kick purple&brown a$$, and get rich. But gosh boys, you are really making it hard to sit in a circle and 'play guitar.'
To AV8OR
Don't try to hide behind your scope clause.....you are trying to screw the ABX pilots out flying their company is bringing to the table. If it makes you feel better about taking peoples jobs, then go ahead, blame it on the contract.
Also, Abexpilot is correct, CAT II is critical and cost effective to dispatch reliablilty. Name three major airlines that are giving up their CAT II and going to CAT I.
To Meat n the Seat
Sorry, but with each pilot group already entrenched in their corners (and worlds apart), they will not eventually "come together". There are many examples of this in the airline industry.
To GoABX
I agree, ALPA is generally only interested in dues and will screw anyone to get them.
To all ABX pilots.....I hope you have a clear definition of what "fair and equitable" means to you. The TWA pilots supposedly got a "fair and equitable" integration. They got exactly what AV8OR wants to do to you. It's all relative.
Don't try to hide behind your scope clause.....you are trying to screw the ABX pilots out flying their company is bringing to the table. If it makes you feel better about taking peoples jobs, then go ahead, blame it on the contract.
Also, Abexpilot is correct, CAT II is critical and cost effective to dispatch reliablilty. Name three major airlines that are giving up their CAT II and going to CAT I.
To Meat n the Seat
Sorry, but with each pilot group already entrenched in their corners (and worlds apart), they will not eventually "come together". There are many examples of this in the airline industry.
To GoABX
I agree, ALPA is generally only interested in dues and will screw anyone to get them.
To all ABX pilots.....I hope you have a clear definition of what "fair and equitable" means to you. The TWA pilots supposedly got a "fair and equitable" integration. They got exactly what AV8OR wants to do to you. It's all relative.
AV8OR
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 696
GoABX, et al,
I'm not trying to hide behind anything. A contract scope clause is just that, and if you don't like it, that is your problem. If you kick our ass in court, then it'll be my problem, pure and simple.
My only point was that your annimosity is misplaced. I'm telling you, John Fellows doesn't care about our scope or your scope. You will either understand that now or later.
As for us "stealing" your work...dude you and I both know that ABX is flying DHL labeled stuff and ASTAR is flying Airborne labeled stuff. How can we steal "your" flying when there is no more Airborne? It is all DHL, and acording to our contract all DHLWE freight is supposed to be flown by DHL/ASTAR pilots. The difference between this and AA TWA is night and day. You saying we are stealing your flying would be like if AA had purchased TWA gates at STL and TWA pilots claimed that APA pilots stole their flying. I mean you are free to believe whatever you want but we are just gonna have to disagree on that one man.
Last, I can guarantee that if the two airlines become one, the majority of the ASTAR pilots want a fair merger. As a matter of fact our MEC and the pilots continually make a distinction on the point that it is ABX management that is bringing the suit not the pilots.
Look, we can go round and round playing the my scope clause is bigger than your scope clause game but, because DHLWE wouldn't let our CEO buy ABX, that is going to be decided in court now. I just thought that you would want to get your facts straight regarding our operating cost and performance while you attack the character of the ASTAR pilot group in public.
I don't know how long you've been dealing with or even paying attention to how John F. or DHLWE or DPWN does biz, but I assure you those of us at ASTAR know who the culprit is in this fiasco, and we are not blaming yall.
I'm done, I'll let the record speak for itself from here on in.
I'm not trying to hide behind anything. A contract scope clause is just that, and if you don't like it, that is your problem. If you kick our ass in court, then it'll be my problem, pure and simple.
My only point was that your annimosity is misplaced. I'm telling you, John Fellows doesn't care about our scope or your scope. You will either understand that now or later.
As for us "stealing" your work...dude you and I both know that ABX is flying DHL labeled stuff and ASTAR is flying Airborne labeled stuff. How can we steal "your" flying when there is no more Airborne? It is all DHL, and acording to our contract all DHLWE freight is supposed to be flown by DHL/ASTAR pilots. The difference between this and AA TWA is night and day. You saying we are stealing your flying would be like if AA had purchased TWA gates at STL and TWA pilots claimed that APA pilots stole their flying. I mean you are free to believe whatever you want but we are just gonna have to disagree on that one man.
Last, I can guarantee that if the two airlines become one, the majority of the ASTAR pilots want a fair merger. As a matter of fact our MEC and the pilots continually make a distinction on the point that it is ABX management that is bringing the suit not the pilots.
Look, we can go round and round playing the my scope clause is bigger than your scope clause game but, because DHLWE wouldn't let our CEO buy ABX, that is going to be decided in court now. I just thought that you would want to get your facts straight regarding our operating cost and performance while you attack the character of the ASTAR pilot group in public.
I don't know how long you've been dealing with or even paying attention to how John F. or DHLWE or DPWN does biz, but I assure you those of us at ASTAR know who the culprit is in this fiasco, and we are not blaming yall.
I'm done, I'll let the record speak for itself from here on in.
Just because you THINK you have a right to all of the flying, due to your unnegotiable scope clause, doesn't mean that you should demand it. Scope is for your protection. You deserve to be protected. Don't screw others out of a job to gain more than you deserve. Use your "iron clad" scope clause to protect yourself, don't try to tell me that all flying must be yours.
To clarify:
1. My scope sucks and so does yours.
2. Airborne (grd) was bought and still exists, though this may not be true forever.
3. Pick up & delivery of DHL freight is now done by some Airborne drivers in some locations, but there has been no comingling of Astar and ABX airfreight (yet). Don't let the packaging fool you.
4. We want to carry the business we have serviced for the last 20+ years. That is our work. ALPA could have defended its scope without claiming our work, there is a big difference.
A. My theory is once the scope issue is resolved, many of the numerous feeder flights DHL has will be cancelled. All this contractor work will be put on ABX (Astar) trips and some of our ground product will actually start moving on the ground. Cancelling the feeders will save a huge amount of money and should not impact Astar/ABX mainline pilots. Hopefully, if the transatlantic MD-11/Dc-10 stuff shifts back over to Astar (where it belongs), then it might actually equate to growth for both airlines.
But just the removal of the driver overlap and contractor flying will mean a big boost to overall profitability.
B) Alpa and the Astar MEC have 2 different sets of interests. I pray that the MEC is driving the problem and won't allow themselves to be strong armed by Duane.
1. My scope sucks and so does yours.
2. Airborne (grd) was bought and still exists, though this may not be true forever.
3. Pick up & delivery of DHL freight is now done by some Airborne drivers in some locations, but there has been no comingling of Astar and ABX airfreight (yet). Don't let the packaging fool you.
4. We want to carry the business we have serviced for the last 20+ years. That is our work. ALPA could have defended its scope without claiming our work, there is a big difference.
A. My theory is once the scope issue is resolved, many of the numerous feeder flights DHL has will be cancelled. All this contractor work will be put on ABX (Astar) trips and some of our ground product will actually start moving on the ground. Cancelling the feeders will save a huge amount of money and should not impact Astar/ABX mainline pilots. Hopefully, if the transatlantic MD-11/Dc-10 stuff shifts back over to Astar (where it belongs), then it might actually equate to growth for both airlines.
But just the removal of the driver overlap and contractor flying will mean a big boost to overall profitability.
B) Alpa and the Astar MEC have 2 different sets of interests. I pray that the MEC is driving the problem and won't allow themselves to be strong armed by Duane.
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