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Aarp Age 65 Issue

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FoxHunter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Posts
679
November 14, 2006


The Honorable Marion Blakey
Administrator
Federal Aviation Administration
800 Independence Avenue, SW
Washington, DC 20591

Dear Administrator Blakey:

This letter is in response to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) request for comments on changing the Age 60 rule for U.S. pilots. AARP urges elimination of the outdated and discriminatory age limit which requires that commercial airline pilots cease flying at age 60. At the very least, the FAA should conform to the new standard adopted by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) that will allow pilots to fly until they are 65 if there is another pilot younger than age 60 in a two-pilot operation.

AARP is a nonprofit, nonpartisan membership organization that helps people aged 50+ maintain independence, choice, and control in ways that are beneficial and affordable to them and to society as a whole. With more than 37 million members, AARP is the largest organization representing the interests of Americans age 50 and older and their families. Nearly half of AARP members are working either full-time or part-time, and they have a vital interest in remaining on the job or finding work without facing age discrimination by their employers.

Older pilots should be judged on ability, not age.

AARP has long opposed the FAA’s Age 60 rule as well as any law or regulation imposing an upper limit on how long an individual can continue in a job. Older workers should be judged on the basis of their individual competence and ability, not on inaccurate and stigmatizing stereotypes. AARP has testified before Congress and the FAA in opposition to the Age 60 rule; filed amicus curiae briefs in the federal courts; filed comments in FAA rulemakings; and supported the efforts of individual pilots seeking exemptions from that rule. AARP has formally supported pending legislation to raise the age limit to 65 because it represents an important step toward recognizing that pilots should be judged on their skills, not on assumptions about age.

The Age 60 rule is discriminatory because age, rather than knowledge, skills, or experience, determines who can fly as a commercial airline pilot. Airline industry observation indicates that older, experienced pilots are often more capable and less subject to human error than are their younger counterparts. Airlines already test individual pilots regularly for their fitness to fly through medical certification and flight simulator exercises. Eliminating the age limit would not require additional medical exams, line or simulator checks, or operational restrictions. The FAA’s rigorous medical and operational performance standards screen out pilots of all ages who are unhealthy or poor performers, ensuring that commercial pilots of all ages are among the healthiest and most capable pilots employed.

Requiring commercial airline pilots to stop flying at age 60 affects not only individual pilots, but the U.S. workforce as a whole.

Airline pilots who reach age 60 are likely to leave their employers when they can no longer fly. They may retire or they may search for another job. If they look for work, former airline pilots will likely face obstacles to finding a new job; it takes older displaced workers longer to find work than it does for younger workers. The average duration of unemployment in 2005 was 25.9 weeks for jobseekers aged 60 or older and 17.5 weeks for jobseekers ages 16-59. Older workers who lose their jobs are more likely to drop out of the labor force. Twenty-six percent of workers ages 55-64 who were displaced between 2003 and 2005 left the workforce. This compares to 12 percent of workers ages 25-54. Older displaced workers who get jobs are more likely to experience earnings losses than younger job finders. Among workers ages 60-64 who had been displaced between 2001 and 2003 and rehired as of January 2004, the average drop in weekly earnings was 31 percent.

If they decide to retire, former pilots may face a significant drop in their retirement income. As the FAA is aware, a number of airline defined benefit pensions have defaulted in recent years, resulting in their takeover by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation (PBGC). As a result, pilots have been hit with pension cuts twice: first, because the maximum annual benefit the PBGC pays is $47,659, much less than most pilots have earned; and, second, because benefits are further reduced for those who retire earlier than age 65. The reduction in what a pilot was expecting to collect in pension benefits before the PBGC takeover can be greater than 50 percent. In addition, those under age 62 are not yet eligible for Social Security benefits and consequently do not have a secure source of retirement income immediately available if they leave the work force. Furthermore, retired pilots who start collecting Social Security at age 62 will collect smaller monthly benefits than they would if they waited until full retirement age to collect—age 66 for persons turning 60 this year.

At the same time older workers experience roadblocks to finding work, policymakers predict there will be shortages of workers in the general economy as the boomers retire. This projected shortage includes airline pilots. The demand for pilots is expected to increase as the economy grows because there is likely to be more need for air travel.[1] Add to that expected growth in retirements among airline pilots and navigators – a projected increase of 173 percent during the period 2003 through 2008 - and there is likely to be a scarcity of qualified pilots within the next five to ten years.[2] Eliminating the age 60 rule would help mitigate the expected smaller pool of experienced pilots and help maintain healthy growth in the economy.

At the very minimum, the FAA should adopt the age 65 standard approved by the international aviation community.

New standards adopted by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), effective later this month, provide that a non-U.S. commercial pilot may continue to fly on two-pilot flights until age 65 as long as there is another pilot younger than age 60. While AARP believes the current Age 60 rule should be eliminated, U.S. commercial airline pilots should be afforded, at the very minimum, the same right to work that foreign pilots will receive in U.S. airspace.

Conclusion

The age 60 rule should be eliminated: it discriminates against pilots on the basis of age and no job qualification justifies its existence. Erasing the age 60 limit would alleviate the financial hardships faced by pilots forced prematurely from the cockpit as well as benefit the economy by allowing seasoned pilots to fly and continue to contribute to their and the U.S.’s economic well-being.

AARP appreciates the willingness of the FAA to re-examine its obsolete policy forcing otherwise qualified pilots from the controls at age 60. It is long past the time to eliminate this archaic rule adopted nearly a half century ago. At the very least, we urge the FAA to conform with the new ICAO standard as a first step to eliminating arbitrary age-based mandatory retirement for commercial airline pilots.

If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to call me, or contact Amy Shannon of our Federal Affairs staff at 202/ 434-3760.

Sincerely,



David Certner
Legislative Counsel and
Director of Legislative Policy
Government Relations and Advocacy
 
Some rather humorous quotes from the AARP:

Airline pilots who reach age 60 are likely to leave their employers when they can no longer fly.

Geez, you think they'll really leave their employer?


Add to that expected growth in retirements among airline pilots and navigators – a projected increase of 173 percent during the period 2003 through 2008

How many navigators are employed by the majors these days?


[2] Eliminating the age 60 rule would help mitigate the expected smaller pool of experienced pilots and help maintain healthy growth in the economy.

Sounds like Kit Darby helped with this one...
 
Gents, let's just hope that AARP doesn't get serious about their push for changing age 60. They have a powerful lobbying group; nothing like the keystone kops who went out to DC this week to try to talk to congressmen. Here's the e-mail:

Subject:
[Apaad] Blitz Headquarters
Date:
Sat, 11 Nov 2006 6:36 EST
From:
"GLC" <[email protected]>
To:
"APAAD LIST" <[email protected]>
var ab_subquery = "op%3dadd%26charset%3diso%2d8859%2d1%26record%5fid%3d%2d1%26fname%3d%26lname%3d%2522GLC%2522%26screen%5fname%3d%26email1%3dgarycottingham%40comcast%2enet";var msg_subject = "[Apaad]%20Blitz%20Headquarters";« Previous | Next »


Blitz headquarters for the 14th, 15th and 16th of November.

Suite 331
Hall of the States Building
400 North Capitol Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001

Headquarters will be staffed starting 0800 on the 14th. We will have
coffee, etcetera. The official kick-off will be at 0800 on the 14th. I
know that not all will be able to make this kick-off at 0800 but we will
have briefing packs available through-out the day for your use in meetings
with the Congressmen, so please stop by.

At the end of the day you are invited to meet at headquarters for a
debriefing.

I a map is available on the website which shows the close proximity to Union
Station for our headquarters. The map also shows the Congressional office
buildings around the Capitol. Senator’s offices are North of the Capitol
and Representative’s offices are South of the Capitol.

Color map available for download at the website: www.apaad.org

Regards,

Gary L. Cottingham
317.513.0099 Sprint
317.498.6383 Verizon
[email protected]
www.apaad.org






The LAST thing that congressmen and their staffers wanted to deal with during the last week is people running around trying to bend their ear. C'mon, there was a shifting of the tectonic plates in Washington politics.
 
Gents, let's just hope that AARP doesn't get serious about their push for changing age 60. They have a powerful lobbying group; nothing like the keystone kops who went out to DC this week to try to talk to congressmen. Here's the e-mail:

Subject:
[Apaad] Blitz Headquarters
Date:
Sat, 11 Nov 2006 6:36 EST
From:
"GLC" <[email protected]>
To:
"APAAD LIST" <[email protected]>
var ab_subquery = "op%3dadd%26charset%3diso%2d8859%2d1%26record%5fid%3d%2d1%26fname%3d%26lname%3d%2522GLC%2522%26screen%5fname%3d%26email1%3dgarycottingham%40comcast%2enet";var msg_subject = "[Apaad]%20Blitz%20Headquarters";« Previous | Next »


Blitz headquarters for the 14th, 15th and 16th of November.

Suite 331
Hall of the States Building
400 North Capitol Street, NW
Washington, DC 20001

Headquarters will be staffed starting 0800 on the 14th. We will have
coffee, etcetera. The official kick-off will be at 0800 on the 14th. I
know that not all will be able to make this kick-off at 0800 but we will
have briefing packs available through-out the day for your use in meetings
with the Congressmen, so please stop by.

At the end of the day you are invited to meet at headquarters for a
debriefing.

I a map is available on the website which shows the close proximity to Union
Station for our headquarters. The map also shows the Congressional office
buildings around the Capitol. Senator’s offices are North of the Capitol
and Representative’s offices are South of the Capitol.

Color map available for download at the website: www.apaad.org

Regards,

Gary L. Cottingham
317.513.0099 Sprint
317.498.6383 Verizon
[email protected]
www.apaad.org






The LAST thing that congressmen and their staffers wanted to deal with during the last week is people running around trying to bend their ear. C'mon, there was a shifting of the tectonic plates in Washington politics.

Andy, you have no idea.;)
 
I wonder how AARP would feel if we applied components S65 to the Medical profession. How would they like to be operated on by a surgeon that is so old, it's been mandated, by a Federal Regulatory entity, that a younger surgeon stand behind him and watch every move he made. The fact that one guy has to be under 60, in and of itself proves there are safety concerns. However in this country, $$$$$$ rules over anything else.
 
I wonder how AARP would feel if we applied components S65 to the Medical profession. How would they like to be operated on by a surgeon that is so old, it's been mandated, by a Federal Regulatory entity, that a younger surgeon stand behind him and watch every move he made. The fact that one guy has to be under 60, in and of itself proves there are safety concerns. However in this country, $$$$$$ rules over anything else.

Sorry son, most AARP members look to the older, more experienced Doctor. The young surgeon may stand behind the older doctor, not to save the day, but to learn some of the skills that the older doctor has.



ICAO
"older pilots do not present any particular risk to flight safety. Neither is the Secretariat aware of scientific research that dictates the maintenance of the current upper age limit. On the contrary, studies conducted in Japan (1990) and United States (1993) both gave indication that pilots’ retirement age could safely be increased by several years, and a very recent study of 165 commuter aircraft accidents in the United States between 1983 and 1997 points to no notable differences between the age groups except that the percentage of crashes involving pilot error decreased somewhat with age, being lowest for pilots between 58 and 63. The over-all conclusion was that neither the prevalence nor the pattern of aircraft accidents change significantly as age increases from the 40s to the SOs and early 60s. In another recent study in the United States, a cohort of more than 3 300 commuter and air taxi pilots, who were between 45 and 54 years old in 1987, were followed for eleven years. No age-related increase in crash risk was shown, but the risk of crash decreased by half among pilots with more than 5 000 flying hours at baseline. In Japan, in a study of its 60-63 year-old airline pilots, it was found that none had been involved in an accident during the ten-year study period (1992- 2001) while during the same period 323 accidents including twenty-seven airline accidents had been reported to the authorities. The purpose of simulator checks, line flying checks and regulatory health examinations is to contain the risk of pilot ‘failure’ during the period of validity of the rating or medical certificate; it appears from available evidence that such checks do ensure adequate protection of flight safety for those aged under 60 years. The Secretariat knows of no reason to believe that they will fail to do so for those aged 60 to 64 years. Moreover, there is still today, as stated by AsMA, insufficient medical evidence to support any restrictions based on age alone. In the JAA countries, the upper age limit of 60 has been maintained for pilots in single-crew operations, but since 1 July 1999, the JAA regulations have allowed airline pilots to continue flying until age 65 with limitation to multi-crew operations and with the proviso that no other member of the flight crew is older than 59. However, the Secretariat is aware that this proviso was not based on medical grounds but rather the result of a compromise between the different parties. Although recommended by IATA, the Secretariat does not consider this proviso safety relevant for the following reason: For the individual pilot engaged in multi-crew operations, it is today generally accepted that a medical incapacitation risk of one percent per annum (“The 1% Rule”) is fully compatible with the desired flight safety level for airline operations. This risk level corresponds to one medical incapacitation per 100 years or approximately one million hours. Male pilots from Scandinavia, United Kingdom and NorthAmerica are lilely to approach this risk level when they are around 65, female pilots three to four years later. The risk of two older pilots becoming medically incapacitated at the same time, during the same one-hour flight, is thus one per trillion hours (1 trillion [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]— [/FONT]1012 or one million [FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]x [/FONT]one million), a risk so low that it can safely he disregarded"
 
You're delusional Fox. Don't try to equate your current professional situation with any non seniority based peofession. You have a hire date and everything else falls into place. Doctors, executives, atheletes, etc, function almost singuliarly on performance, our profession does not. Frankly, youth usually devours the aged in professional endeavors, be happy you've been spared that harsh reality as long as you have. If this profession functioned on something other than seniority you probably would not see the oldest pilot being the highest paid. Look at NASCAR. Some old guys can hang, but they aren't too durable. PGA has to have a senior tour because those sages can't keep up. Nobody watches them, they don't make much money and the AARP can't do anything about it.
 
Fox,

All I've learned from the older guys is to keep my first wife, keep a modest house, forget about boats, fancy cars, and airplanes, and above all, keep my D*ck in my pants. That's it. Feel free to interpret the intent of having one guy under 60 in the cockpit anyway that makes you feel better about it. Denial is a very comforting thing sometimes.
 
Fox,

All I've learned from the older guys is to keep my first wife, keep a modest house, forget about boats, fancy cars, and airplanes, and above all, keep my D*ck in my pants. That's it. Feel free to interpret the intent of having one guy under 60 in the cockpit anyway that makes you feel better about it. Denial is a very comforting thing sometimes.


ferlo,

I have to disagree with you on the "airplanes" advice. Flying my RV4 makes me feel younger everytime I take it up!
 
FoxHunter said:
Sorry son, most AARP members look to the older, more experienced Doctor. The young surgeon may stand behind the older doctor, not to save the day, but to learn some of the skills that the older doctor has.


Most? This from your own empirical foundation? OK, I'll try the premise approach. I believe most folks (including AARP) would prefer the surgeon who had lots of experience but wasn't so old they forgot which part to remove next. In other words, the middle aged fortyish surgeon. You really think some young FO who's been in the airplane for any length of time is paying attention to your skillz? They're making sure you don't f--- -p the FMS Bra. I don't know why we're even talking about this anyway. It looks like you're going to pasture and the young bull has been summoned to the barn. Make sure you offer me a cart next year at Walmart.

Andy: I agree, AARP is the sleeping giant we should all be concerned with.
 
Last edited:
To this day I find myself conflicted about whether the mandatory retirement age should be changed. The rule has little to no impact on my career in corporate aviation but I can appreciate both sides of the argument.

That said, AARP can STICK IT. Because of the reactionary putzes in that organization, meaningful and necessary change to the Social Security system has once again been thwarted. Because of the fearmongering leadership of AARP, it is very likely that the baby boomers will be the last generation to ever receive a Social Security check without dramatically raising the retirement age or inflicting a crushing tax burden on the next generation, or both.

No one wants to grow old, but I can't wait for that AARP membership application to hit the mailbox in a few years so I can tell them where to put it.
 
Once again AARP is acting 100% against my best interests. I can't wait until they start sending me junk mail .... I plan to waste a lot of their time.

Every body gets old ... can't they work on programs that will benefit us all? Oh I forgot, we are all here to support the baby boomers....
 
Undaunted flyer, Foxhunter, Tejas and Klako:

Will you not go to pasture quietly? Or will you have to be dragged kicking and screaming from the left seat, bottle of pablum planted firmly in mouths? Why don't you guys man-up and admit defeat instead of acting like Tom Delay. Yesterday I crossed off the guys who turn sixty next year from my seniority list (on my refrigerator, as a daily reminder) and penciled in their retirement parties so I can be the last one to see them off the property. Thine opposition have been vanquished, temporarily.
 
FoxHunter said:
Sorry son, most AARP members look to the older, more experienced Doctor. The young surgeon may stand behind the older doctor, not to save the day, but to learn some of the skills that the older doctor has.


Most? This from your own empirical foundation? OK, I'll try the premise approach. I believe most folks (including AARP) would prefer the surgeon who had lots of experience but wasn't so old they forgot which part to remove next. In other words, the middle aged fortyish surgeon. You really think some young FO who's been in the airplane for any length of time is paying attention to your skillz? They're making sure you don't f--- -p the FMS Bra. I don't know why we're even talking about this anyway. It looks like you're going to pasture and the young bull has been summoned to the barn. Make sure you offer me a cart next year at Walmart.

Andy: I agree, AARP is the sleeping giant we should all be concerned with.

Yeah - sleeping in front of the tv with Lawrence Welk on. Here's a new safety argument for you.

Anyone else notice that the old guys take about three times more "potty breaks" than the rest of us? It's very helpful safety and security wise to open the cockpit door several extra times each flight.

PIPE
 
Amazing that the arguments against the age 65 rule are rooted in "politics of the profession". Like it or not, the medical evidence showing there's no safety issue to speak of by abolishing the age 60 rule cannot be repudiated!
 
Did they say "judged on your ability"? :eek: TC

P.S.--If we have learned only one thing in our aviation careers (however brief they may be) it's that nothing is guaranteed. Your retirement isn't guaranteed, your company continuing to operate isn't guaranteed, the rules not changing isn't guarnateed...

This debate is pure self-interest cloaked in "logical arguments" and "scientific research". It's ok to be a hypocrite as long as you know what you're doing and why.
 
Were it not for the fact that there are some 5000 guys on the street furloughed, I'd be the first to push for an age 65 retirement.. but for it to occur now is a disaster.. sorry, you had a good career pal, retire and enjoy your last years..
 
Hey Gang,

Lets help out those 5,000 on the street by pushing the FAA to make age 55 the new age 60!!!!!

I'm so tired of this debate. Everyone is selfish and wants what they think is best for them.

Change will happen. Adjust to it. Right now we are all like fish on a dock flopping around trying to get back in the water. This is a futile debate we will have zero impact on.

I await the slings and arrows.
 
Why would anyone want to work past the age of 60? I know the companies want us to, given that every year we work past 60 is one foot closer to the grave! I understand that a lot of senior pilots are having to put their 3rd family through college and what not, but come on...should we all have to pay for their mistakes? I am sorry you bought stock in Enron, but who would know that the blond serving cokes was going to leave you for some younger f/o! Who would have though of it, after dumping your older f/a for the younger, dumber one! okay i'll get off that rant. I started this career knowing full well i was done at 60 (at least with the airline). Once again, piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine. Please go quietly into that good night and let the youngsters take over.
 

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