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aaaaaaAAAAAAaand there Offf!!

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GARFF

Pull my Finger.
Joined
Jan 18, 2004
Posts
101
"Become eligible for reduced hiring minimums under ATP's Airline Alliances with American Eagle, ExpressJet, Pinnacle, and PSA."

http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/airline_transition_program/index.html?gad=CJjugsUBEggBVt7Em8ER_Rj69L7_AyD03ZYO


(in a horse race announcer voice..kinda nasally, Ya know what i m sayin)
RRrrRound the corner is American Eagle....oooonnnlly two steps behind Colgan Air....oh wait Express Jet is now neck 'n' neck PSA...oh my goodness from behind it's Pinnacle..............!



Supply and demand race is on!
 
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I thought when there is a pilot shortage the wages should be going up.
 
YourPilotFriend said:
I thought when there is a pilot shortage the wages should be going up.

Not while there are a million people to do it for free. Once planes start flying out of the sky and NBC does a Dateline show about how people with 100 hours are flying RJ. Then it will change, remember this is America we are Reactionary. Just look at 9/11 and airport security. We didn't give a crap before and now we can't fart in an airplane without it becoming a terrorist incident.
 
Anyone else with me in nominating Adamkooper for avatar of the year ? And why come I haven't noticed this one before ?
 
I second that nomination
 
I vote for adam kooper! You have a link to that website? If that is your girlfriend or wife, or both, you are one luck guy.
 
Believe it or not there has been a drastic reduction in student start ups at these brainwashing flight acadamies. Our flight school feeds off these drop-outs after they have been raped hard.
 
Actually ATP is one of the few "fast track" schools that seems to have a decent program. It isn't as expensive as a lot of the others and the guys get a lot of multi time. I went through their 3 day multi-engine program about 6 years ago and I was pleased with it.

I would much rather put 40k into ATP than 80-100k into some outfit like Delta Connection Academy or 120k-150k into ERAU.
 
Pattern-Master said:
Believe it or not there has been a drastic reduction in student start ups at these brainwashing flight acadamies. Our flight school feeds off these drop-outs after they have been raped hard.

Hope you're not paying to the 'source' of your information and they are not worth a penny.

Call UND/ERAU and other flight schools and you'd be blown away at how much the enrolment has increased from previous years. And if you don't know much about ATP then you, my friend, need to read more.

Bunny
 
AdamKooper said:
Not while there are a million people to do it for free. Once planes start flying out of the sky and NBC does a Dateline show about how people with 100 hours are flying RJ. Then it will change, remember this is America we are Reactionary. Just look at 9/11 and airport security. We didn't give a crap before and now we can't fart in an airplane without it becoming a terrorist incident.

First, the FAA would have to lower the Commercial License requirements to below 100 hours...and we're talking Part 141.

Second, you don't need thousands of hours to learn how to fly the CRJ safely. It would amaze you know how many thousands of pilots are flying these planes (and I'd use the CRJ as it seems to be the most complicated plane to learn at the regional level) who got hired by various airlines with around 500 hours or less.

Bunny
 
FlyBunny said:
First, the FAA would have to lower the Commercial License requirements to below 100 hours...and we're talking Part 141.

and I'd use the CRJ as it seems to be the most complicated plane to learn at the regional level)

First, I think you missed the sarcasm with that statement... We all know that there aren't 100 hour pilots flying CRJ's... But for some, it really seems that it might not be too far off...

Second, I'd be willing to put up the Saab engine/prop system (i.e. autocoursen) against most any other aircraft flying regional 121 ops as far it's level of complication. I swear they've engineered those systems to confuse everyone.
 
You can't fly my cancelled checks, but here's my wife and kids! Way to go FAA.
 
I did instruct at one of those academies. The numbers usually vary in regards to enrollment. But overall the enrollment is going up. A lot of 20-23 year old kids have that dream of flying a jet. It is just a damn shame that a lot of them do not understand the outlook of the regionals today. The marketing teams at Flight Safety, DCA, Embry Riddle, etc, are very good at telling a 20 year old kid with little or no college education that this is the only way to get to the regionals. If I had to do it all over, no way would have I choosen the route I took to get to where I am at today. Luckily I have a four year degree to fall back on. Another gem that fell my way is that I do not have these astronomical loan payments that are due to many after they complete these various programs. I made smart investments as a young twenty year old and have a great sugar momma. Be wise to anyone thinking that Flight academies or Flight colleges are the only way to go. I learned the hard way.
 
FlyBunny said:
First, the FAA would have to lower the Commercial License requirements to below 100 hours...and we're talking Part 141.

Second, you don't need thousands of hours to learn how to fly the CRJ safely. It would amaze you know how many thousands of pilots are flying these planes (and I'd use the CRJ as it seems to be the most complicated plane to learn at the regional level) who got hired by various airlines with around 500 hours or less.

Bunny

Yeah...as long as everything is working properly and all is well. Pair up that 500 hr wonder pilot with some 1500 hr wondercaptain and throw in a few critical system failures and see what happens.

Do experienced crews crash and make mistakes? Yes. Is it more likely to happen with the wonderpilots? Yes.
 
SBD said:
I did instruct at one of those academies. The numbers usually vary in regards to enrollment. But overall the enrollment is going up. A lot of 20-23 year old kids have that dream of flying a jet. It is just a dang shame that a lot of them do not understand the outlook of the regionals today. The marketing teams at Flight Safety, DCA, Embry Riddle, etc, are very good at telling a 20 year old kid with little or no college education that this is the only way to get to the regionals. If I had to do it all over, no way would have I choosen the route I took to get to where I am at today. Luckily I have a four year degree to fall back on. Another gem that fell my way is that I do not have these astronomical loan payments that are due to many after they complete these various programs. I made smart investments as a young twenty year old and have a great sugar momma. Be wise to anyone thinking that Flight academies or Flight colleges are the only way to go. I learned the hard way.

I agree with all you said.

Yes, the quality of flight instruction and the academics are above average at these schools, but the amount of money paid for those services is just a bit too much. A hard working student can read all the academics on his/her own (after all unlike engineers, lawyers, doctors, to become a pilot, you DO NEED a degree, just FAA licenses). Find a good instructor and study hard and you will do as well if not better than these flight school graduates. But, I must say that the part 141 programs at UND is perhaps the best when it comes to flight training...again, it's just not worth paying the 'amount' you have to in order to get all the licensees.

It's a money making machine for UND and others...their cost is incredibly cheap (yep, it's North Dakota folks), but the amount they charge is ludicrous. Granted that some of the advantages are that few [very FEW] among the thousands would get the job with such airlines like Horizon, Eagle, etc. with fewer hours than the average applicant would, but that’s what the ‘false advertisement is all about. If you look at UND Aerospace’s web page, they still show pictures of 2 (not one, but 2) Beech 400A’s (http://www.avit.und.edu/f2_Programs/f1_Undergraduate/index.php).

Now isn’t that false advertisement? Yes IT IS. They do NOT have the Beech 400’s. At one time the did, but for past many years, they don’t - were taken away by China Airlines…so, my point is that these kind of marketing gimmicks are what work wonderfully well and they have thousands of people willing to pay incredible amount of money to get the licenses.

On the other hand…I have worked with Part 61 and Part 141 non-collegiate pilots…and I must say that the collegiate program graduates have on average better knowledge and skills at a comparable level with non-collegiate products. After all, why do you think the airlines like Horizon, Eagle, etc. don’t officially lower their minimums for non-collegiate pilots?

I believe in the flight training programs of these institutions, but I don’t believe in whether it’s worth so much money. Especially an institution like UND that’s a ‘state-run’ institution, it should not cost more than half of what they are charging. But, again…we Americans fall for ‘false advertising’ all the time anyway.

Sorry, got way off the topic here…but any comments are welcome.

Bunny

 
Fly-n-hi said:
Yeah...as long as everything is working properly and all is well. Pair up that 500 hr wonder pilot with some 1500 hr wondercaptain and throw in a few critical system failures and see what happens.

Do experienced crews crash and make mistakes? Yes. Is it more likely to happen with the wonderpilots? Yes.

Actually, if you do the research, especially in Part 121 flying all over the world, you'd be VERY surprised, that most accidents were cause by very experienced pilots flying for so-called major airlines.

Even if you compare a certian number of flight hours flown during a certain period of time, let's say from 1995-2005, you'd find that the number of accdidents caused by low-time pilots (flying regional part 121) is unbelievably less than those caused by hight-time pilots flying for major airlines.

Bunny
 
labbats said:
You can't fly my cancelled checks, but here's my wife and kids! Way to go FAA.

Ever thought of comparing single-pilot operations Vs two-pilot operations?

135 requirements so high because it could be a single-pilot ops. 121 has no legal minimums [flight hours experience] for SIC because you already have a reasonably experienced PIC in the left seat. It really is that simple.

Still read up on all the lives/airplanes/property lost by 135 (very experienced pilots in your opinion) and compared that to regional airlines accidents and it'd blow you away. Just one of many hundreds of example: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20060111X00054&key=1

Yes, you would say that it's not the final report, but look at the METAR, and pull up a plate for the approach he was shooting. Don't tell me that this 'experienced' pilot wasn't trying to shoot an 'illegal' approach. He should not even have been on the final. Heck he should not even have 'started' the approach.

You'd find very few examples of 121 (low time pilots) going below minimums and crashing...but part 135, where they let you fly cancelled checks, is filled with these type of accidents.

Bunny
 
SkyBoy1981 said:
Actually ATP is one of the few "fast track" schools that seems to have a decent program. It isn't as expensive as a lot of the others and the guys get a lot of multi time. I went through their 3 day multi-engine program about 6 years ago and I was pleased with it.

I would much rather put 40k into ATP than 80-100k into some outfit like Delta Connection Academy or 120k-150k into ERAU.

I went to ATP in 1999 and think that the statement you made was absolutely true about 5 years ago. I went to the Airline Career Pilot Program (which then cost 24,900) and came out with a shot at an instructor job and some muti time, but no empty promises. I left with a good taste in my mouth, but when I look at what they are up to now I just shake my head.
 

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