AA587 and the airbus a300 rudder failure

[saviboy]

Hello everyone,

I am taking a class on aircraft materials and I decided to make a presentation on the A300 rudder failure in november 2001.( flight aa 587)

I did some research on the internet but I have trouble finding a description of the rudder system and the type of material used in the rudder. I believe it is carbon fibre but not too sure. anybody with any sort of information about that is welcome to help.
If there is some American airlines pilots with description of the training method used during the accident, I would appreciate you guys sharing this info.

thank you

PS : I already have the Ntsb report

 

[Juniority]

the rudder didn't fail, it performed perfectly (responding to every input from the FO) right up to the point where the vertical stabilizer tore itself off the aircraft.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Hello everyone,

I am taking a class on aircraft materials and I decided to make a presentation on the A300 rudder failure in november 2001.( flight aa 587)

I did some research on the internet but I have trouble finding a description of the rudder system and the type of material used in the rudder. I believe it is carbon fibre but not too sure. anybody with any sort of information about that is welcome to help.
If there is some American airlines pilots with description of the training method used during the accident, I would appreciate you guys sharing this info.

thank you

PS : I already have the Ntsb report

At some point in your report, you should insert the following:

From the day they start flying, pilots are taught that operating below the "maneuvering speed" for an aircraft means that the pilot can deflect the flight controls to their limits without breaking the airframe. This mishap demonstrates that ain't always so.

 

[Huck]

Don't forget:

- The yaw damper had failed its preflight check and had to be reracked by maintenance,

- The lug that failed on the Vertical stab had been field repaired by sandwiching the composite with two metal plates and then drilling straight through and inserting bolts, and

- The FDR was not capable of recording rudder pedal inputs.

 

[saviboy]

Don't forget:

- The yaw damper had failed its preflight check and had to be reracked by maintenance,

- The lug that failed on the Vertical stab had been field repaired by sandwiching the composite with two metal plates and then drilling straight through and inserting bolts, and

- The FDR was not capable of recording rudder pedal inputs.

thank you, very interesting info. do you have any documentation to attest this?
I am gonna need to list my sources in the presentation.

Thanks

 

[EagleRJ]

- The FDR was not capable of recording rudder pedal inputs.

The FDR did record rudder pedal inputs, but its sample rate was only about 2hz, meaning that rapid back-and-forth movements were not recorded accurately by the FDR (it only recorded what it saw every 1/2 second).

 

[indytestdude]

Blame for this accident lies with three parties:
1. Airbus (and Boeing for that matter) for not informing aircrew of what the aircraft's structural limitations were.
2. AA for teaching advanced handling programme, w/o regard to structural limitations.
3. Any Airline with typical dumded down flight manual.

 

[UALjan15]

Have you tried searching back issues (in the library or online) of AW&ST? I would expect quite a few articles on the subject, and you would have the added bonus of having a source to quote other than "Huck on Flightinfo."

 

[igneousy2]

The FDR did record rudder pedal inputs, but its sample rate was only about 2hz, meaning that rapid back-and-forth movements were not recorded accurately by the FDR (it only recorded what it saw every 1/2 second).

I think it did.

This presentation from the NTSB website seems to confirm this.

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2001/aa587/presentations/02_airplane_perf.pdf

good luck

 

[afres bum]

so who do you blame for the A310 (Air Transat Flt 961?) that lost a rudder at altitude during cruise a couple years ago?

 

[Huck]

That's rudder pedal movement, not force. Just because the NTSB labels it "pilot input" doesn't make it so. Lots of things can cause a rudder pedal to move.

I may be a bit biased, but for some reason I want to pull for the dead pilots. They don't get to share their side of the story. (Incidently, I feel the same about Egypt Air, another aircraft that had automation problems before its last flight).

By the way, there's a huge discussion on this at PPRune.org. Go to Rumour and News or some of the technical/engineering forums.

 

[saviboy]

thanks for all the answers. any body would have some documentation about the system itself?
thanks

 

[FR8mastr]

The FDR did record rudder pedal inputs, but its sample rate was only about 2hz, meaning that rapid back-and-forth movements were not recorded accurately by the FDR (it only recorded what it saw every 1/2 second).

Are you saying that this rudder was pushed back and forth, full motion in less than 1/2 of a second, maybe you should apply for a job with airbus

 

[Wasted]

Go to the library and find the 11/25/02 issue of AW&ST. Engineering analysis of the rudder reversal phenomena of that accident.

 

[Crossky]

thanks for all the answers. any body would have some documentation about the system itself?
thanks

College boy, a previous poster mentioned AW&ST, that means Aviation Week and Space Technology. Any college worth it's engineering salt will have back issues, of which I'm sure there are articles that go into detail that the vertical stabilizer of the A300 is a composite structure. I would guess carbon-graphite layers built up into a sandwich. I have no idea how it was fastened to the airframe, which is metal. It was a lug which the vertical stabilizer was fastened to was what failed. There were also NTSB hearings which Airbus engineers explained the structure and rudder system, google much?

Interesting that a previous post stated the lug which failed was the one which was repaired in the field. Did not know that . . . .

Also they determined that the rudder endured multiple, at least three I think, full deflections from one side to the other, before the stabilizer let go. Metal bends and cracks when it yields, but composites snap and break apart.

Enjoy your class, study hard, maybe you won't have to be a pilot and will be home most nights!

 

[Singlecoil]

At some point in your report, you should insert the following:

From the day they start flying, pilots are taught that operating below the "maneuvering speed" for an aircraft means that the pilot can deflect the flight controls to their limits without breaking the airframe. This mishap demonstrates that ain't always so.

Va is the speed at which the aircraft will stall before the positive load limit factor is exceeded. The negative limit load factor, as well as lateral limits can still be exceeded at Va. Many of us were taught as you describe, but it was incorrect.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

so who do you blame for the A310 (Air Transat Flt 961?) that lost a rudder at altitude during cruise a couple years ago?

JetBlue/LUV/Airtran or ALPA or management or commuter pilots or low ticket prices or Congress or old pilots.