Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

AA Tests Missle Defense on a 767

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

EngineOut

Time to Make the Donuts!
Joined
Apr 5, 2003
Posts
246
AA Tests Missile Defense on a 767

Link: http://nytimes.com/2005/05/29/national/29missiles.html?ei=5094&en=be0104f77fcd1777&hp=&ex=1117339200&adxnnl=1&partner=homepage&adxnnlx=1117303246-iH1Ew/RewqwgjqOkR5bAPQ

May 29, 2005
U.S. Set to Test Missile Defenses Aboard Airlines

By ERIC LIPTON
In an airplane hangar north of Fort Worth, technicians are preparing to mount a fire-hydrant-shaped device onto the belly of an American Airlines Boeing 767. It is an effort that could soon turn into a more than $10 billion project to install a high-tech missile defense system on the nation's commercial planes.

The Boeing 767 - the same type of plane that terrorists flew into the World Trade Center - is one of three planes that, by the end of this year, will be used to test the infrared laser-based systems designed to find and disable shoulder-fired missiles. The missiles have long been popular among terrorists and rebel groups in war zones around the world; the concern now is that they could become a domestic threat.

The tests are being financed by the Department of Homeland Security, which has been directed by Congress to move rapidly to take technology designed for military aircraft and adapt it so it can protect the nation's 6,800 commercial jets. It has so far invested $120 million in the testing effort, which is expected to last through next year.

Yet even before the tests begin, some members of Congress, and several prominent aviation and terrorism experts, are questioning whether the rush to deploy this expensive new antiterrorism system makes sense.

Homeland Security officials have repeatedly cautioned that no credible evidence exists of a planned missile attack in the United States. But there is near unanimity among national security experts and lawmakers that because of the relatively low price and small size of the missiles, as well as the large number available on the black market, they represent a legitimate domestic threat.

The concern is not just for the lives that would be lost in the shoot-down of a single plane, proponents say. It is for the enormous economic consequences that would result if the public were to lose confidence in flying.

"We are long overdue for a passenger aircraft to be taken down by a shoulder-launched missile," said Representative John L. Mica, Republican of Florida, who is pushing for the systems to be installed. "We have been extremely, extremely lucky."

But a significant contingent of domestic security experts say the administration's focus on these missiles may be misdirected. They cite the broad range of ways that terrorists might strike next and point to studies showing that shoulder-fired missiles - the most popular of which are American-made Stingers and Soviet-made SA-7's - present less of a threat at airports than do truck bombs or luggage bombs.

"People have probably assumed that these kinds of weapons would work with much greater certainty," said K. Jack Riley, the director of the public safety and justice program at the Rand Corporation, a nonprofit research organization that has studied threats from shoulder-mounted missiles. "This is not as big a threat as people might think."

Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems are competing to build the devices, which rely on plane-mounted sensors that detect heat-seeking missiles and then automatically fire infrared lasers to jam or confuse the missiles' guidance systems. The defense would be used for about a 50-mile area around airports, while planes land or take off.

The American Airlines Boeing 767 and two jets owned by Northwest Airlines and FedEx will be tested to determine whether they remain as airworthy with the new technology aboard and to figure out if, in simulated attacks, the defense system is reliable. For now, no passengers will be aboard.

Shoulder-fired missiles were introduced by the Americans and the Soviets in the 1960's to protect ground forces. A recent Congressional study found that more than 350,000 existed in government arsenals worldwide. But they also are a favorite of rebel groups and terrorists. At about six feet long and 50 pounds, they are easy to transport, and older models can cost only a few hundred dollars.

Calls for putting the defense systems on commercial planes took on new urgency in 2002. That year, two missiles were fired at a Boeing 757 in Kenya that had been chartered by an Israeli airline. Both missed.

And in November 2004, an Airbus A300 cargo plane flown by DHL was struck by a missile on takeoff from the Baghdad airport. The plane lost hydraulic power but was able to land.

"This is one of the greatest dangers we face in the air," said Senator Charles E. Schumer, Democrat of New York, who has helped lead the push in the Senate for the deployment of missile defense systems.

Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems have briefed members of Congress, urging them to invest in the systems, and Northrop has commissioned a poll in an effort to demonstrate public support for the program. One Northrop briefing featured photographs of men in long, loose robes taking a missile launcher out of a car and firing a round into the air.

As the tests proceed, Homeland Security officials are looking for ways to lower the price tag. It has been estimated that it could cost $10 billion to install the systems on all commercial jets and as much as $40 billion over the next two decades, once maintenance and operational costs are added in. By comparison, the entire budget proposed for aviation security in the United States is $4.7 billion for the coming fiscal year.

Homeland Security has asked BAE and Northrop Grumman to design systems that would cost no more than $1 million per plane, rather than the roughly $1.6 million some industry experts had expected. And the devices must work without need of repair for 3,000 hours, instead of the 300 hours required for military jets, according to specifications set by Homeland Security.

But even if the contractors can lower the costs, airline industry representatives and some terrorism experts say the price is hard to defend.

The Air Line Pilots Association, Boeing and the Air Transport Association of America are urging that more emphasis be placed on alternative defenses, like controlling areas around airports, limiting the international supply of missiles and making less expensive changes that would allow an airplane to fly even if its hydraulic system was lost.

"The cost versus the benefit here does not play out," said Jim Proulx, a spokesman for Boeing. The presumption is that the government would pay to install the systems on existing planes, but the airlines would assume the ongoing maintenance and fuel costs, which could exceed $1 million a year per plane.

In a recent study by Rand, which examined security threats at Los Angeles International Airport, a shoulder-mounted missile was characterized as a "lesser threat" in terms of potential deaths than a truck bomb or a luggage bomb. In fact, the study suggested that the threat posed by a shoulder-fired missile was not much greater than that of a sniper who might fire a .50-caliber rifle at a plane from outside the airport.

A separate study, financed by Homeland Security in 2004, said that the infrared systems would be useless or only marginally effective against several types of shoulder-mounted missiles.

Part of the reason for the relatively low ranking of missiles among threats is that large passenger airliners are designed to fly after the loss of an engine, even if that engine explodes, industry experts said.

Even before the current tests are complete, the Bush administration and Congress are moving to set aside $110 million for the next phase. Mr. Schumer and Mr. Mica also want to require that the devices be installed immediately on certain new commercial jets.

And others, including Representative Steve Israel, Democrat of New York, and Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California, want Congress to set aside $10 billion to install the systems on existing planes, perhaps first on the 1,000 aircraft that make up the Civil Reserve Air Fleet, which transports troops in times of war. The cost could be great, they said, but most likely smaller than the damage to the economy that would result from a single shoot-down.

"We have been warned over and over again by the people who know," Ms. Boxer said, referring to classified briefings by the F.B.I. and the C.I.A. "It is a race against time."

Yet Representative Christopher Cox, a California Republican who is chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, said the missile defense program was being driven too much by politics and lobbyists.

"This is not the result of considered analysis of potential threats, terrorist capabilities or intentions," Mr. Cox said. "It should be."
 
Last edited:
My question is this: If someone does take control of the aircraft, would they not be able to control the missile defense system? Therefore, the USAF wouldn't be able to shoot the missile-defense equipped aircraft down...right?

Missile defense is a tad overboard IMHO. How much should we spend to save a life? Question of the millenium for our industry.
 
What a load of horse crap.

Don't you think we could take the $10 BILLION to be used to fight this very small, unlikely threat, and spread it over a wider array of threats to better protect America?

$10 BILLION is a lot of money to spend to equipt our airliners with the tools necessary to counter-act ONE individual threat.

And good grief, if you were a terrorist and you knew all the American airliners had these "giant frickin laser beams" on them, then wouldn't you just fire on all the Virgin Atlantic, Luftansa, Singapore, Air France, and British Airways jets that fly into our airports by the hundreds everyday??

Let's be realistic here.
 
Last edited:
Is Haliburton the contractor?:rolleyes:?

User997 said:
What a load of horse crap.

Don't you think we could take the $10 BILLION to be used to fight this very small, unlikely threat, and spread it over a wider array of threats to better protect America?

$10 BILLION is a lot of money to spend to equipt our airliners with the tools necessary to counter-act ONE individual threat.

And good grief, if you were a terrorist and you knew all the American airliners had these "giant frickin laser beams" on them, then wouldn't you just fire on all the Virgin Atlantic, Luftansa, Singapore, Air France, and British Airways jets that fly into our airports by the hundreds everyday??

Let's be realistic here.
 
Yes and no. Catch-22.

Do I think 10 billion dollars could be better spent? Yes and no.

Do I think the risk is greater than you think? Yes.

But generally I agree with you. There will be plenty of other undefended airliners out there.

Plane Spotting is a pretty big past time in Europe. Sometimes, during a daytime takeoff, I'll take a look out my window as the gear is coming up and I've seen numerous "observation areas" set up near runways. Just some guys hangin out, killing time, with cameras and binoculars, watching the planes go by.

The problem is, one day when a plane does get shot down, the family (more to the point: the family's lawyer) is going to want to know what the government and industry did to prevent the deaths.

It's a political prophyllactic (sp?).
 
I don't know the performance of Soviet made manpads, but if this system is supposed to protect against missiles in the same class as Stinger, I think they are wasting their time, and our tax money, i.e. this is a big corporate welfare program.

I've seen Stinger at the training range. It reaches Mach 2 in 2 seconds. In less than 4 seconds after firing, it can hit the target. I somehow doubt they can build a defensive system that will sense, locate, and disable a threat in 3 seconds.
 
Vector4fun said:
I don't know the performance of Soviet made manpads, but if this system is supposed to protect against missiles in the same class as Stinger, I think they are wasting their time, and our tax money, i.e. this is a big corporate welfare program.

I've seen Stinger at the training range. It reaches Mach 2 in 2 seconds. In less than 4 seconds after firing, it can hit the target. I somehow doubt they can build a defensive system that will sense, locate, and disable a threat in 3 seconds.

I'm not sure you are understanding the mechanics of IR projectiles and the associated defenses.

It is without consequence how fast a missle accelerates or travels if its guidance is IR. It is defeated by virtue of interfering with its ability to track to a selected IR source. The defense system has no need to "sense, locate and disable" the projectile. In fact, the crew would have no idea that an IR guided projectile has been launched unless by some chance they see it pass the aircraft as it runs out its fuel load without guidance.

I do not believe civil aircraft are making any preparations for actively guided projectiles, only passive.
 
User997 said:
What a load of horse crap.

Don't you think we could take the $10 BILLION to be used to fight this very small, unlikely threat, and spread it over a wider array of threats to better protect America?

$10 BILLION is a lot of money to spend to equipt our airliners with the tools necessary to counter-act ONE individual threat.
...10 billion? You could probably pay the terroists to not shoot at your airliners, with 9 billion in change.

I found this statement kind of odd...
"We are long overdue for a passenger aircraft to be taken down by a shoulder-launched missile," said Representative John L. Mica, Republican of Florida..."
We're long "overdue"? Did we miss a due date or something.
 
air_chompers said:
yeah, and by the way it sounds it only works agenst infered missiles not the radar guided ones.
You could use an inferred missile defense system against inferred missles...it would save the taxpayers billions.

Inferred Missile Defense System...Saves Tax Payers Billions.

Although, I believe the government would still figure out a way to bilk the taxpayers 10 billion on the cheaper inferred missle defense system...just like they did on the 500.00 toilet seats and 1,500.00 hammers.
 
Traderd said:
I'm not sure you are understanding the mechanics of IR projectiles and the associated defenses.

It is without consequence how fast a missle accelerates or travels if its guidance is IR. It is defeated by virtue of interfering with its ability to track to a selected IR source. The defense system has no need to "sense, locate and disable" the projectile.

You're correct, I do not know the mechanics of how they plan to defeat the IR sensor exactly. But the news article(s) I've read referred to:


infrared laser-based systems designed to find and disable shoulder-fired missiles.


"Find" seems to imply it "senses" a launch, and "tracks" the missile. Of course, the press, (and for that matter, the press releases) can be pretty ambiguous and misleading about technical matters.

You seem to imply that the defensive system is not "aimed". Don't know if you can explain that further, but I would like to know how that works. And for that matter, how the system detects a launch, and differentiates a launch from, say, a bright glare off a reflective surface.
 
Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems have briefed members of Congress, urging them to invest in the systems, and Northrop has commissioned a poll in an effort to demonstrate public support for the program. One Northrop briefing featured photographs of men in long, loose robes taking a missile launcher out of a car and firing a round into the air.

This is welfare for the wealthy. It's an excuse to give another huge cost plus contract to the "defense" industry. It's just like the 50 billion dollar missile defense system that will never work. The wild thing is that it doesn't matter if it doesn't work, that's not the point.

It's sad that we have 50 billion for missile defense and 10 billion for BAE and Northrup to play around with a 767, but were cutting VA benefits and our people over in the Middle East don't all have the best equipment. Oh yeah, and we're 7 plus TRILLION in debt.

Scott




Bush plan eyes cuts for schools, veterans
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Bush administration has told officials who oversee federal education, domestic security, veterans and other programs to prepare preliminary 2006 budgets that would cut spending after the presidential election, according to White House documents.
The programs facing reductions — should President Bush be re-elected in November — would also include the National Institutes of Health, the Environmental Protection Agency and the Interior Department.

Many of the targeted programs are widely popular. Cuts could carry a political price for a president who has touted his support for schools, the environment and other domestic initiatives.

A spokesman for the White House Office of Management and Budget said the documents, obtained by The Associated Press, contained routine procedural guidelines so officials could start gathering data about their needs for 2006.

Decisions about spending levels "won't be made for months," said the spokesman, J.T. Young. "It doesn't mean we won't adequately fund our priorities."

Democrats said the papers showed the pressures that a string of tax cuts Bush has won from Congress have heaped onto the rest of the budget.

"The only way we can even begin to pay for these huge tax cuts is by imposing cuts on critical government services," said Thomas Kahn, Democratic staff director of the House Budget Committee.

A May 19 memorandum from the White House budget office to agencies said they should assume 2006 spending levels specified in an internal administration database that accompanied the 2005 budget that Bush proposed in February. The government's 2006 budget year begins Oct. 1, 2005.

"If you propose to increase funding above that level for any account, it must be offset within your agency" by cuts in other accounts "so that, in total, your request does not exceed the 2006 level assumed for the agency," the memo read in part.

The memorandum and portions of the internal database were obtained by The Associated Press from congressional officials who requested anonymity. The officials read other portions of the database to a reporter.

Congress is just beginning to consider the 2005 federal budget, which will total about $2.4 trillion. About two-thirds of it covers automatically paid benefits like Social Security, and the remainder — which Congress must approve annually — covers agency spending.

According to the database, that one-third of the budget would grow from the $821 billion Bush requested for 2005 to $843 billion in 2006, or about 2.7%.

But that includes defense and foreign aid spending, which are both slated for increases due in part to wars and the battle against terrorism.

The remaining amount — for domestic spending — would drop from $368.7 billion in 2005 to $366.3 billion in 2006. Though that reduction would be just 0.7%, it does not take into account inflation or the political consequences of curbing spending for popular programs.

"Continuing the strategy of last year's budget, the 2006 budget will constrain ... spending while supporting national priorities: winning the war on terror, protecting the homeland and strengthening the economy," the memorandum said.

The documents show spending for:

• Domestic security at the Homeland Security Department and other agencies would go from $30.6 billion in 2005 to $29.6 billion in 2006, a 3% drop.

• The Education Department would go from $57.3 billion in 2005 to $55.9 billion in 2006, 2.4% less.

• The Veterans Affairs Department would fall 3.4% from $29.7 billion in 2005 to $28.7 billion.

• The Environmental Protection Agency would drop from $7.8 billion in 2005 to $7.6 billion, or 2.6%.

• The National Institutes of Health, which finances biomedical research and had its budget doubled over a recent five-year period, would fall from $28.6 billion to $28 billion, or 2.1%.

• The Interior Department would fall 1.9% from $10.8 billion in 2005 to $10.6 billion.

• The Defense Department would grow 5.2% to $422.7 billion in 2006, and the Justice Department would increase 4.3% to $19.5 billion in 2006.

The documents were first reported by The Washington Post.
 
Vector4fun said:
You're correct, I do not know the mechanics of how they plan to defeat the IR sensor exactly. But the news article(s) I've read referred to:





"Find" seems to imply it "senses" a launch, and "tracks" the missile. Of course, the press, (and for that matter, the press releases) can be pretty ambiguous and misleading about technical matters.

You seem to imply that the defensive system is not "aimed". Don't know if you can explain that further, but I would like to know how that works. And for that matter, how the system detects a launch, and differentiates a launch from, say, a bright glare off a reflective surface.

ECCM for IR guidance is not aimed, rather it rus continuously with a signal emmision. The statement in the article that the system finds a launch and/or tracks a projectile would indicate an ECM directed at an active system, and active systems (currently) are not man portable.

ECM for IR guided projectiles works on a passive basis. It works by defeating the IR guidance capability of the missles sensor. When launched, an IR guided missle detects the IR signature of a proposed target and tracks to that target by continuously receiving and interpeting this signal. As you would expect, the target IR source is normally that where the largest signature is created; the engine(s). Most of the modern sensors are well equipped to lock onto a given source and track to impact (or a proximity detonation).

ECCM works to defeat this ability to track to the IR source by essentially "confusing" the seekerheads ability to track to the target. The defensive devise is turned on and left alone. All the while it is transmitting IR signals of varying frenquencies so that if an IR missle is launched, its tracking system will be unable to lock onto the IR signature of the aircraft carrying the device, rather it will lose all guidance as the "spoofed" signals provided by the ECCM device works to confuse it guidance system. There is no notification of a launch, track or missle defeat. The defensive system does not need to differentiate between any IR sources, that is the job of the projectile's seeker. It worked if a missle was fired and did not impact.

Another method would be flare launches, which is often done as SOP at certain points in the mission profile or where the threat missle has dual guidance, both active and passive. Again, these systems are not man portable. Well unless he is one hell of a man.

Most of the terms you have used will apply to an actively guided missle (i.e. radar). When such a missle is launched, some military aircraft are equipped with equipment that, when properly utilized, will tell the crew of a radar search and aquisition, missle launch and track. Additionally, some ECCM equipment has the functionality to automatically deploy CM dependant on the threat missle identified. In some cases it will alert the crew who then must take apropriate measures. I would assume this would be possible for commercial operations, but if a passive IR ECM system is projected at $10B, the cost for an active system defense would make that price look like a bargin.

Thanks

You are correct about the lack of accuaracy in technical matters on the part of the general media.
 
The military has defensive systems like these, and they work... fairly well. There are at least 4 different mechanisms in use, and each has its limitations and associated costs. A system using flares has to "see" the launch, then expend flares that the missile homes on instead of the aircraft. Good sensors can generally tell the difference between a flash from a windshield and a missile launch, but nothing's perfect. Newer generation missiles can distinguish between a flare and an aircraft, but newer generation flares can defeat some missiles, though not others. It's an ongoing "race." The oldest manpads are most easily decoyed by all the defensive measures out there, and they're the cheapest & most prolific. The newest American missiles (along with laser beam riders and advanced radar-guided missiles) are extremely difficult to defeat, but they're also virtually unavilable on the open market. Things like SA-16's and SA-18's are somewhere in between.

Flares aren't generally under consideration for defending airliners, because of the costs (fires on the ground) of a false negative.

Other systems use IR jammers that operate continuously to decoy old missile guidance systems, but are pretty useless against new systems (counterproductive, even). Newer technology comes under the broader heading of DIRCM, directed IR countermeasures. All of these sytems "see" a launch, then send energy at the missile, either to mislead it (like a jammer, but more sophisticated) or to fry its seaker (i.e. with a fairly powerful laser). The latter is the newest & least mature & most expensive technology, but in theory can defeat about any IR seeker.

Until somebody invents a better mousetrap, of course. Is it worth $10B to render 98% of the MANPADS out there useless against the American airline fleet, while working to keep the other 2% under tight controls? Perhaps so... if only the latest & greatest missiles that only the US has can beat the system, that's pretty good, but if the $10B buys a system with zero capability against anything that hasn't already been obsolescent for decades, well, maybe not such a great plan.

Highly technical questions, and Aviation Week is a better source for the specifics of it all than FlightInfo. Read some of their back issues, and you can get a much broader education on things like cooled vs uncooled seekers, flare rejection technology, dual band seekers, the relative availability, cost, and capability of the SA-7 vs the SA-14 vs the SA-16 vs the SA-18, the difference between the various IR bands. But of course, even they don't have access to much of the actual hardware, and the closely guarded technologies behind them.

Which raises a whole other question: might the government allow classified equipement on US airliners? And under what conditions? Whole new can of worms there!
 
The cost could be great, they said, but most likely smaller than the damage to the economy that would result from a single shoot-down.

Unless, of course, they denied the terrorists credit for the attack. It's worked before...:rolleyes:

If I'm not mistaken, the IR dazzlers like this one being tested operate continuously when the aircraft is in a high-threat environment, and work by interfering with the guidance of any missile fired. It doesn't need to respond to a launch, like flare systems do. Airlines will only buy off on such a system if it is reletively cheap to install and maintain, and if there is no liability problem, as there is with flare systems.

And IR protection is all aircraft need to defeat a terrorist threat. All shoulder and tripod-fired missiles are IR guided. The smallest radar-guided missiles are vehicle launched, and we can assume the bad guys won't get their hands on them.
 
EagleRJ said:
Unless, of course, they denied the terrorists credit for the attack. It's worked before...:rolleyes:

And IR protection is all aircraft need to defeat a terrorist threat. All shoulder and tripod-fired missiles are IR guided. The smallest radar-guided missiles are vehicle launched, and we can assume the bad guys won't get their hands on them.
What about human guided threats?

http://www.avweb.com/newswire/11_03a/leadnews/188981-1.html

One of these in the wrong hands could negate 10 billion in countermeasures.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom