AA poll

[theflyingcondor]

Hi guys and gals, I'm the new kid on the block here.

I've been reading a bunch of posts... It seems that almost everyone on the forum has negative stuff to say about AA and its pilots, from working conditions to pay to internal strifing, etc. I thought AA had similar work rules compared to most other Majors excluding Delta. Is it really a bad place to work? Are there any AA pilots that could explain why?

PS Why are they called the Sky Nazis?

 

[BigMotorToter]

Actually, the term Sky Nazi's has roots all the way back to the days of the Hindenberg. AA had conection service via a DC-3 to New Jersey where the Hindenberg would take the people to Germany. In those days the Hindenberg also had a big fat swatztika emblazened on the tail. Germany, even before the war was known as racist country but apparently AA didn't care, money is money no matter how many people where tortured and killed there.

If you would like to confirm this, do a search on AA advertising. Airways magazine about 2 years ago actually printed the un-edited version of this conection service advertisment, swatztika and all. Some other versions have politically corrected the ad and the swatztika has been edited out.

AA had no morals then, and they continue that tradition today, as evidenced by the wholesale slaughter of the TWA employee's. I guess we weren't pure enough.

P.S.
I am not comparing the TWA/AA situation to the unimaginable horrers cast upon millions of people in Germany durning WWII. Just showing that AA has been a ruthless, uncaring machine since its inception.

 

[theflyingcondor]

AA had no morals then, and they continue that tradition today, as evidenced by the wholesale slaughter of the TWA employee's. I guess we weren't pure enough.

P.S.
I am not comparing the TWA/AA situation to the unimaginable horrers cast upon millions of people in Germany durning WWII. Just showing that AA has been a ruthless, uncaring machine since its inception.[/QUOTE]

Big Motor,

I think that all the big airlines act the same way, not just limited to AA. I'm not too familiar with the AA/TWA merger but all airline pilots I've talked to say that there is always an employee group that feels they got the shaft during an airline merger regardless of the airline.

A couple of buddies at UAL and DL also feel that their airline is big, immoral and uncaring, I don't think AA is the only one.

I used to fly TWA a lot and loved their service, but do you really think they would have been still flying after 9/11. Not saying that AA came and saved the day but wouldn't the TWA employees have been even more in a bad situation had they gone out of business? It seems like a lot of TWA pilots kept their jobs with AA even though a lot also got furloughed. It seems to me that every airline has furloughed pilots after 9/11, not just AA.

Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for opinions or views.

 

[OUjetdrvr]

Thats fascinating about the AA-Hindenburg connection, never knew that one.

The AA pilots as a group, now seem to fill the role of sky nazis very well. I think that term got spread by a bunch of Eagle pilots after being countinually and ruthlessly crushed, much like the originals did to others.
Its also amusing to note, that if they, at AA, are called sky nazis, then we, at Eagle, must be the hitler youth...

 

[yaks]

AA was a pretty good place to work. Management no better or worse than anywhere else. From what my friends tell me now Arpey is actually doing a good job at listening and implementing some employee suggestions, unlike previous bosses. It was a hell of a lot better than the current LCC gig.

 

[AA717driver]

Yaks--How many other airlines have you worked for? AA's management spends far more effort on monitoring and punishing its employees than most dictatorships.

In matters of employee relations, AA should not even be mentioned in the same breath as SWA, JB, CAL... Being a large, monolithic corporation is one thing, treating your employees like two-year-olds is quite another.TC

 

[yaks]

Three plus the ANG. Take the emotion away from your reactions to day to day goings on and you will see they are all pretty similar (with the possible exception of SWA). Just because the company smiles and pats you on the back while you're getting hosed doesn't make them benevolent.

 

[CSY Mon]

Tend to agree with Yaks.

Got treated pretty good over at AA: Chiefs, check-airmen and g/s instructors went out of their way to help if I had problems or concerns.

Same with fellow employees, 99% were super nice...Found one or two rotten apples in the cockpit, but every other airline s'got 'em as well.

Have worked for 18 or 19 flight schools, charters, commuters, non-scheds, airlines and majors so I have quite a "data-base" to compare with...

Understand there is plenty of rah-rah over at SouthWest and JetBlue 'cause the working environment is aye-so great, yet I had no complaints with AA, enjoyed the 3 years there.

(Not so sure I enjoy the furlough however, but that sort of becomes a habit in this business, 4th or 5th time so far...... )

 

[AA717driver]

Sorry guys, I've seen both sides now... Lousy song... Anyway, I checked with my friends who have been there since the mid-80's. They agree with my assessment. So did several of the APA guys I worked with last year. (In fact, they were considerably more harsh toward management than I was.) I guess everyone has a different perspective.

Besides, it takes more than three years to flush any airline's kool-aid out of your veins...

yaks--I know they can be laid back, but the ANG still doesn't count as an airline. TC

 

[CSY Mon]

Besides, it takes more than three years to flush any airline's kool-aid out of your veins

No Cool-Aid in these veins Mr. AA driver.
I did not want to work there or anywhere else...
When Tower Air went down the drain, I was more than ready to sell the junk and take off sailing forever...Had some fights about it at home.
Then reluctantly went to work for AA, 4 weeks later I asked for a leave of absence, in the middle of FE ground school...Took 3 weeks off and almost got a divorce as I wanted to quit and leave the airline business for good.
But alas, I lost the battle, wife won and I crawled back to AA and got another class date.

To me AA was just a meal ticket, not a goal...After that is said however, I did enjoy the job once I got used to the 757/767 and the reserve system and all that.
Then comes 9/11 and the pay cuts, then the furloughs, etc, etc.

 

[yaks]

I must agree with csy as this is the family business, and AA was not my first airline, my eyes are wide open. My point is that yes your friends may not like everything that goes on but the simple fact they have been there so long I think blinds them to the realities of the industry. There are a lot of crappy flying jobs out there but flying for AA is not one of them.

( I know the ANG doesn't qualify but I have seen some good and some really bad decisions made at the wing level as well as at the airlines, that's all I meant.)

 

[75M]

I can't disagree with anyone's opinion on this, but here's my take...I've flown for four airlines including three majors (not including AirTran which technically won't be a major until at least the full year 2004 numbers are in) and this is what I've noticed...

At three out of the four airlines, pilots referred to doing their job in terms similar to, "I have to go fly this weekend" or "I'm off until the end of the month and then I fly three on four off next month".

However, at American, the terminology was almost always similar to, "I'm off this weekend and then I work next week" or "I'm working on my wife's birthday", you get the idea. Additionally, I repeatedly heard AA pilots refer to an airplane as "the office" while saying "they would (fill in the blank) if they could make the same money doing something else" (e.g., flip burgers, shovel poop, etc.).

As an Ex-TWA pilot, I have no animosity toward AA Management. Circumstances got way out of control post 9-11 and although most of the former TWA pilots and ALL of the TWA F/A's ended up on the street, it had much more to do with the unions than management. Having said that, there is something about the culture at American Airlines that sucks all the fun out of flying (and it ain't the good kind of sucking).

There are very few pilots who make it to the Majors who didn't start out in love with aviation. We're a group of people who risked our lives, put relationships on hold, gave years of service to the military and ran up huge debts via student loans, credit cards, etc. just in order to fly airplanes for a living.

Yet, after all that, some would rather walk away from AMR, only to be forced to go back when threatened with divorce. Inconceivably, from what I saw from January 0f 2001 until May of 2003, that's a common sentiment among AA pilots. Granted, the last several years weren't exactly the golden age of the airline business, (we all know when that was) but if you love to fly, it oughta show.

Bottomline, something about working at American makes people miserable. I guess the real reason they bought TWA was because they needed the company.

 

[CSY Mon]

Yet, after all that, some would rather walk away from AMR, only to be forced to go back when threatened with divorce.

Well, Mr. 75, perhaps you misunderstood part of my post:

I did not try to walk away from AA because it was such a lousy outfit, but rather 'cause I was burned out with flying and did not really want another job.
Did 13 years of only long-hauls before AA and had it up to my eyebrows with airports, pax, 40 hour days, (Nights) simulators, commuting, chapter 11s, 7s, etc, etc.

AA was acually nice to me and the future was looking bright back in Nov. 2000 IF one was into it with body and soul....I was not.

As native new hires with AA we got treated pretty darn well:
Good training, plenty of time to go home during the week-ends, straight to "A" scale after the probation...No complaints from me, but have also heard the stories about ruthless managment and all that...Just never felt it on the body, but that does not mean I am full of Kool-Aid, rather neutral on the subject.

Some AA guys are still bitching about how much they lost on the B scale and how much reduced their retirement is, compared to the A scalers and all that.
They also think managment are laying awake at night trying to think of a way to screw the pilots.
Some guys are never happy, you find them at all companies / airlines.

The C/Ps I have met and dealt with have all been OK, seen much worse over at Evergreen and Tower Air and a few other places.

 

[AA717driver]

CSY--My wife said she'd divorce me if I DID go back to AA! Bottom line is...the bottom line. If I can go back in a couple of years as STL/S80/CA I may have to do it. Like I said, I'm 46 so it's pretty much fish-or-cut-bait time for me. If AA looks the least bit shaky or it takes more than a couple of years, I'll stick it out here in corporate-land.

I hope you have some time left to recoup your losses. Good luck finding something in the interim.TC

P.S.--When Tower shut down, I was truly sorry. There were some good people over there. I shared several rides on the Princeton Airporter with Tower pilots and FA's.

 

[Swede]

I think a lot of AA angst came from the confrontational 80's and the origination of B-scale. Say what you will about Bobby Crandall, he was one smart guy and understood the industry well. Back when pilots were the well-paid professionals we all either remember or daydream about, he realized that getting a large group of pilots to work for substandard wages would give him a competitive leg-up. The APA bit, the B-scale was born, and AA went from being a modest major carrier to the monster it was in the late 80's early 90's.

I'm not defending the B-scale. I think it sucked, it set a precedent which has continued to this day... In management's mind, low wages = more competitve.

I've always been treated well at AA. The training facility, sims, and instructors are superb. The Chief Pilots have always helped me out when I needed it. Check airman, with RARE exception, are excellent. I think with Arpey we are on our way to surviving this horrible time in our industry. AA's big lack is in Asia. We have the jets with the 777, just not the route authority. Central/South America are cash cows, the Miami hub can make big bux if the infrastructure can keep up with the high demand. The dammed oil prices need to drop, combined with a nationwide surge in business.

 

[Av8trxx]

Nazi-isms & AMR

It's also amusing to note, that if they, at AA, are called sky nazis, then we, at Eagle, must be the hitler youth...

No small coincidence then that the Hitler Youth, ah.. I mean AE terminal at LAX is nick named the "Nest" as Hitlers summer retreat was called the "Eagles Nest"...

http://www.eagles-nest.de/seite/geschichte_e.htm

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

"Crandall Youth"

No small coincidence then that the Hitler Youth, ah.. I mean AE terminal at LAX is nick named the "Nest" as Hitlers summer retreat was called the "Eagles Nest"...

http://www.eagles-nest.de/seite/geschichte_e.htm

I always preferred "Crandall Youth" myself, but now I am dating myself (mostly because nobody else would go out with me! I've been up too late and need to put the keyboard down so nobody gets hurt)

 

[Slim]

As a former AA F/A, and now a captain at CMR, I have both views...inside and outside.

I departed AA and started at CMR in the 1990s. I started well before CMR was purchased by DAL. The way we (my family and I)were treated by CMR was better than AA by far. The pass benefits for us, and my parents, were improved (free vs. the D2 service charge); the medical coverage was better (fixed dollar co-pay vs. percentage of the bill co-pay and lower monthly cost vs. AA's monthly cost) and a better overall attitude.

I could return from a three day trip at AA and believe morale couldn't get much worse. Then, during my next trip, find that the morale was indeed worse. The worst day at CMR, including those leading up to the strike, were better than my best day at AA during the last 10 years or so.

I still maintain contact with some of my former co-workers at AA, pilots and F/As. According to some, if AA isn't around tomorrow, they won't look for another flying job. That tells me AMR/AA management does take the fun out of flying.

I do realize my take on things at AA was partially my own doing because I wasn't doing the kind of flying I wanted to do. That said, the management at AA (excluding Arpey, Hettermann, etc.) did a masterful job of infuriating its work force. Carty was at AA when I departed. I know little of Arpey and do know Mark Hettermann. I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

Good luck and fly safe!

 

[AA717driver]

Slim--Arpey and Hetterman are talking the talk. Time will tell. I've heard Hetterman is cut from the same mold as Cecil was.

I know they could have put a SOB in STL but they chose a really nice guy. Maybe they're serious.TC