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AA Assoc. signs away leverage in latest partial TA

av8dv8

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Apparently Scope is going to be being gutted at AA, it's a fact. And this won't help the rest of the mainline carriers. Apparently the APA MEC chair said in the latest update-

The current "window of opportunity" has not resulted in a (complete) tentative agreement. Management has been looking for scheduling relief in light of the large number of recent retirements and we consistently inform management that relief will be found by successfully concluding contract negotiations.

If the above is true, why did the union negotiators already give away a large amount of leverage that they had previously?

On page two of the .pdf entitled APA's TA regarding bay banding, dated 10-28-2011, there is a caveat that states

-unless the company and union can come to an agreement within 45 days, pay rates of any future deliveries of aircraft will then go to binding arbitration.

How has arbitration worked for APA in the past?-

This portion of the new APA contract shows a disaster in progress.

A valuable piece of the previous APA contract contained a strong piece of leverage that essentially prevented the company from bringing in new aircraft unless the APA agreed to pay rates. With this new TA already signed that piece of leverage will be gone from the next contract.

You would think ALPA would want to prevent a concessionary contract at AA due to the fact that pattern bargaining affects all of us. Wasn't someone from ALPA working for the APA? Was he asked to leave recently or driven out?

If a negotiator observes the engineer on a train doing unsafe things, would he stay on board the train and get a close up view of the wreck about to take place or would he rather hop off?

I examined many pieces of the growing TA at APA, the strategy these pilots have adhered to shows a dangerous practice. They are agreeing to bits and pieces, signing off portions of an agreement as they go. In the negotiator/pilots mind, they think they are storing goodwill in the hopes that management will look at what the pilots have given up already in the already signed TA portions and recognize those gives, and then going forward bargain accordingly in regards to scope and pay, saying, we gave you this in the previous agreements, now you give me something in the next item we are negotiating on. This failed strategy is beginning to manifest itself only now. It appears that some portion of the APA is either compromised or not up to the task at hand.

Does the APA have a message board? Perhaps this should be posted there.
 

Sherpa

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Where is the factual info that scope is being gutted at AA? I don't think (or hope) anyone is planning to cave on scope.
 

Taco Rocket

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At a buck 80 a share, they're going to declare. Why not just keep the status quo and roll the dice?
 

XTW

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Apparently Scope is going to be being gutted at AA, it's a fact. And this won't help the rest of the mainline carriers. Apparently the APA MEC chair said in the latest update-

The current "window of opportunity" has not resulted in a (complete) tentative agreement. Management has been looking for scheduling relief in light of the large number of recent retirements and we consistently inform management that relief will be found by successfully concluding contract negotiations.

If the above is true, why did the union negotiators already give away a large amount of leverage that they had previously?

On page two of the .pdf entitled APA's TA regarding bay banding, dated 10-28-2011, there is a caveat that states

-unless the company and union can come to an agreement within 45 days, pay rates of any future deliveries of aircraft will then go to binding arbitration.

How has arbitration worked for APA in the past?-

This portion of the new APA contract shows a disaster in progress.

A valuable piece of the previous APA contract contained a strong piece of leverage that essentially prevented the company from bringing in new aircraft unless the APA agreed to pay rates. With this new TA already signed that piece of leverage will be gone from the next contract.

You would think ALPA would want to prevent a concessionary contract at AA due to the fact that pattern bargaining affects all of us. Wasn't someone from ALPA working for the APA? Was he asked to leave recently or driven out?

If a negotiator observes the engineer on a train doing unsafe things, would he stay on board the train and get a close up view of the wreck about to take place or would he rather hop off?

I examined many pieces of the growing TA at APA, the strategy these pilots have adhered to shows a dangerous practice. They are agreeing to bits and pieces, signing off portions of an agreement as they go. In the negotiator/pilots mind, they think they are storing goodwill in the hopes that management will look at what the pilots have given up already in the already signed TA portions and recognize those gives, and then going forward bargain accordingly in regards to scope and pay, saying, we gave you this in the previous agreements, now you give me something in the next item we are negotiating on. This failed strategy is beginning to manifest itself only now. It appears that some portion of the APA is either compromised or not up to the task at hand.

Does the APA have a message board? Perhaps this should be posted there.


There is no TA as of this date. Anything written and distributed to this date is merely foaming at the mouth. These items as presented will never pass a vote.

X
 
Last edited:

GuppyWN

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Taking delivery or not of mainline jets is not scope.

Gives away flying to another operator is scope.

BTW, I think it's a dumb move for pilots to have ANY kind of binding arbitration in their contracts. The company will always have the upper hand.

Gup
 

TWA Dude

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Does the APA have a message board? Perhaps this should be posted there.
They certainly do and your post is way too tame compared to the doom-and-gloom assumptions over there to be worth posting. There is no TA.
 

777forever

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AA is losing 2 million a day and some pilots are more focused about flights to Amarillo than flights to Shanghai. Emirates is coming. Soon we'll find out the unintended consequences of fighting for scope on flying with little to no profit
 

av8dv8

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TWA dude says "There's no TA"

According to my sources you are misinformed. Apparently your negotiators are writing pieces of a signed TA with management as they go along. Now that scope and pay are being discussed your "negotiators" are lacking leverage because the previously signed agreements each with some small bit of leverage have been cleared away.

I'm curious dude, what happens to your TWA LEC reps if SLT is negotiated away? Don't the APA LEC reps all have to agree to your complete TA first? If this is so, if the company made a threat that they wanted to close SLT (or SanFran) could those same reps be compromised in some way, thereby creating willing LEC reps who might want to get a deal done in order to save their base?
 

Neubyfly

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TWA dude says "There's no TA"

According to my sources you are misinformed. Apparently your negotiators are writing pieces of a signed TA with management as they go along. Now that scope and pay are being discussed your "negotiators" are lacking leverage because the previously signed agreements each with some small bit of leverage have been cleared away.

I'm curious dude, what happens to your TWA LEC reps if SLT is negotiated away? Don't the APA LEC reps all have to agree to your complete TA first? If this is so, if the company made a threat that they wanted to close SLT (or SanFran) could those same reps be compromised in some way, thereby creating willing LEC reps who might want to get a deal done in order to save their base?

Put the drink down and go to bed.
 

sleeves

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AA is losing 2 million a day and some pilots are more focused about flights to Amarillo than flights to Shanghai. Emirates is coming. Soon we'll find out the unintended consequences of fighting for scope on flying with little to no profit

No profit?? Someone keeps forgetting to tell SWA how unprofitable domestic flying is.
 

nimtz

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AA is losing 2 million a day and some pilots are more focused about flights to Amarillo than flights to Shanghai. Emirates is coming. Soon we'll find out the unintended consequences of fighting for scope on flying with little to no profit

Always appreciate career lectures from Riddle Grads that pop wood at the thought of upgrading 6 months earlier.
 

777forever

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No profit?? Someone keeps forgetting to tell SWA how unprofitable domestic flying is.

Now that SWA's fuel hedge advantage(advantage might be even too weak of a word to use) is gone they are now on the same level playing field with the legacies. In the next several years you will see much less stellar profits from them. We already saw a preview of that last quarter. UniCal and Delta beat SWA earnings badly.

International flying is much more profitable and provides more higher paying jobs than domestic flying. That is what the unions should be focused on. Not on Duluth, Minn while Emirates is ordering 50 777-300ERs in addition to their 100 A380s on order with plans to take over the world
 

ironspud

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TWA dude says "There's no TA"

According to my sources you are misinformed. Apparently your negotiators are writing pieces of a signed TA with management as they go along. Now that scope and pay are being discussed your "negotiators" are lacking leverage because the previously signed agreements each with some small bit of leverage have been cleared away.

I'm curious dude, what happens to your TWA LEC reps if SLT is negotiated away? Don't the APA LEC reps all have to agree to your complete TA first? If this is so, if the company made a threat that they wanted to close SLT (or SanFran) could those same reps be compromised in some way, thereby creating willing LEC reps who might want to get a deal done in order to save their base?

Another drunk "Dollar Store" pilot.
 

LearLove

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International flying is much more profitable and provides more higher paying jobs than domestic flying. That is what the unions should be focused on. Not on Duluth, Minn

OK then - but be prepared to sit in your RJ for the rest of your career because you will never see a major (let alone hold intl. at a major) if all the domestic flying is farmed out.
 

BoilerUP

Citation style...
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To say the business model of Emirates is completely different from American Airlines would be a gross understatement.

Dumbass RJ pilot who obviously can't see the forest for the trees would be wise to look at a globe to help deduce why Emirates needs long-range widebodies.
 

TWA Dude

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Apparently your negotiators are writing pieces of a signed TA with management as they go along.
That's a semantic argument. Either there's a TA or there isn't. Since there isn't all people are talking about is what they think/heard/guess is allegedly being discussed/agreed/signed. Such rumors are usually proven inaccurate and even if not a crappy enough TA will be voted down.
I'm curious dude, what happens to your TWA LEC reps if SLT is negotiated away?
There is no guaranteed ex-TWA representation anywhere, now or later.
As for SLT being negotiated away that's an enormously complicated issue with major DFR and other unintended consequences. Despite a few hotheaded nAAtives whining about how unfair Supp CC is to them the APA has no interest in altering it.
Don't the APA LEC reps all have to agree to your complete TA first? If this is so, if the company made a threat that they wanted to close SLT (or SanFran) could those same reps be compromised in some way, thereby creating willing LEC reps who might want to get a deal done in order to save their base?
I'm too lazy to delve into C&BLs but offhand I'd say only a majority of reps need to approve a TA before it can be sent for general vote. Someone else feel free to look this up.
 

AA717driver

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No TA. Several "AIP's" (Agreements In Principle) which are sections of a completed TA.

Pay is nearly done. SCOPE is THE issue. It will be the final sticking point heading into Ch. 11, IMO.

AA has several hungry hubs to feed. ERJ's cannot do it profitably on the scale envisioned by AMR's ham fisted, myopic, bean-counting management. A mix of smaller mainline jets and Q400's would work. It will take awhile to put that in place so management wants to code share in the interim.

APA, rightly so, doesn't believe it's an interim solution. Hence, the impasse.

TC
 

lookin4better

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Do NOT give in on scope!
 
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