A380 wing snaps before design load limits..

[Whale Rider]

Humpty Dumpty Jet

Hope we don't witness Humpty Dumpty A380 have a great fall!

 

[banned username 1]

Typical, it's French, it surrendered before it was supposed to.

That was the FI official "Best Comment of the Week"-- or should I say weak?

Good Show!!!

 

[JustFly]

The JU-87? That was a good looking airplane, especially the G model. Now the Blohm and Voss BV-141 is uuuuuugglllyyy!!!

 

[414Flyer]

I agree with the comment that it has not reached its break even point, and is probably far from it. I think it was well over 200 it was going to need, and I imagine some of these first ones sold were heavily discounted, to get those initial orders going.
747-800 ADV will put even more pressure on Airbus to lower prices more, since the ADV model gets a similar seat mile cost, but can use existing facilities.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Beech 1900D is one ugly airplane

 

[habubuaza]

Beech 1900D is one ugly airplane

How about the super guppy?

God! Why do I even know that airplane?

 

[TXGold]

The British may have built the Wing, but take a guess where it was designed. I bet money that the British built it perfectly.

 

[EuroWheenie]

TXGold

Sorry mate, but you're wrong. The wings are designed and built by BAe. Airbus (or rather EADS) tells the guys what they want, it's up to BAe to reach those goals. You may bet all you like, but the original A340-500/600 wings were not exactly built to perfection. They were in fact 2 tons overweight per shipset, and the guys at BAe with pencils stuck behind their ears had to go back to the drawing board for a while. Eventually, they did meet the design criteria.

Besides, if we are to speak of French built aeroplanes, most people I know will agree that the Dassault range of business jets are among the best, if not the best, built in the industry. The DA wings on the 50 are, incidentially, of a design that can be traced back to the Mirage F1 - one more piece of useless info you may throw around at your leisure

 

[EuroWheenie]

EagleRJ

But the rate of new orders has tapered off to near zero. Many airlines with existing orders and options appear to be having second thoughts, due to A380 performance shortfalls, operational issues, and the announcement of the B747-800. I don't know where the break-even is, but I don't know if you can pronounce the A380 a "commercial success" with 159 orders and none yet in revenue service. The 747 family is considered a success, but Boeing has built more than 1300 of them.

Airbus has publically stated that they consider A380 orders from 2 customers a year a success. So far, they've achieved that goal. In other words, they have met their own success criteria. They may not have met that of airliners.net members, but I'm quite certain EADS could give less what a.net members think. As for the aircraft having performance shortfalls, where did you pick that up? Has it been overweight? Yes, but which new design isn't fat to start off with? Annoucement of the 747-8? Sure, it's clocked up 34 orders from 2 freight operators, but remarkably not a single passenger order. Besides, noone (outside of the ill-informed) actually consider an aircraft seating 400 and a bit to compete with one seating 550 in similar configuration.

I don't know where the break-even is either, but let's not forget that the A380 is still 8-9 months from entering revenue service and will, conceiveably, remain in production for the next 20-30 years; plenty of time to reach break-even.

Right, like Airbus never "gives" aircraft to operators that are in precarious financial condition, to boost their sales totals? Remember Independence Air?
More likely, US airlines don't see a need for an aircraft that can only fly into a handful of airports and is too big for any of their markets. It appears that they are happy with their 747s and 777s.

And Boeing doesn't do the same? Please, give me a break. Since I'm not senior enough to know anything about what price Airbus and Boeing are offering their products at, and respectfully assume neither do you, all we can do is speculate. Does Airbus offer a discount? Damn right they do! Does Boeing? Of course they do! Offering heavy discounts to launch customers is a tactic employeed by both Airbus and Boeing. You don't honestly belive Boeing could have sold all those 787s at list price, do you? If you wan't to buy a 787 today, the price will be much different from that offered to ANA (or was it JAL?). Same with the A380. Nothing sinister or remarkable about that.

US Airlines may think they don't need the A380, and they may very well be right in their assumptions. However, none of the US majors flying intercontinental routes are hardly in a position where they can afford to buy anything but jungle jets. And of those, I do belive both CO and AA have signed exclusivity deals with Boeing to secure rather hefty discounts, effectively leaving them out of the equation. If airlines like UA and NW should bounce back, both of them could possibly use the A380 on heavily slot constrained routes. That is, unless they wish to hand over the Heathrow, CDG, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Amsterdam etc. markets to the competitor. Virgin Atlantic, for instance, rely rather heavily on the A380 to boost their share of the Heathrow-Kennedy market.

The A380 has 16 exits, and the 747 has 12. The main problem is that while the 747 has just a small first-class area on the second deck (with two dedicated exits), the A380 has a whole passenger deck. There are concerns with the height of those escape slides, as well as the possibility that passengers will use the stairs and overload lower level exits (as has happened in previous 747 evacuations)

BA and Virgin flies their 747-400s with business class on the upper-deck, to name but two carriers, and the aircraft is certified to carry M-class seats up there too (as used on domestic Japanese 747s). Noteably, it has never been subjected to an evac test with full capacity. As for the doors, my bad, it's 16 rather than 18. Still, 60% more doors for an aircraft holding 30% more passengers (in average airliner configuration - 390 for the 747 and 510 for the A380); I fail to see the problem! Will the A380 sail through evac certification? Of course not, at least not with 850 people onboard! Will it eventually pass, well, people whom I assume to be rather more clever than you and me in this particular field says it will, and I tend to acknowledge my personal limits.

 

[habubuaza]

EagleRJ



Airbus has publically stated that they consider A380 orders from 2 customers a year a success. So far, they've achieved that goal. In other words, they have met their own success criteria. They may not have met that of airliners.net members, but I'm quite certain EADS could give less what a.net members think. As for the aircraft having performance shortfalls, where did you pick that up? Has it been overweight? Yes, but which new design isn't fat to start off with? Annoucement of the 747-8? Sure, it's clocked up 34 orders from 2 freight operators, but remarkably not a single passenger order. Besides, noone (outside of the ill-informed) actually consider an aircraft seating 400 and a bit to compete with one seating 550 in similar configuration.

I don't know where the break-even is either, but let's not forget that the A380 is still 8-9 months from entering revenue service and will, conceiveably, remain in production for the next 20-30 years; plenty of time to reach break-even.



And Boeing doesn't do the same? Please, give me a break. Since I'm not senior enough to know anything about what price Airbus and Boeing are offering their products at, and respectfully assume neither do you, all we can do is speculate. Does Airbus offer a discount? dang right they do! Does Boeing? Of course they do! Offering heavy discounts to launch customers is a tactic employeed by both Airbus and Boeing. You don't honestly belive Boeing could have sold all those 787s at list price, do you? If you wan't to buy a 787 today, the price will be much different from that offered to ANA (or was it JAL?). Same with the A380. Nothing sinister or remarkable about that.

US Airlines may think they don't need the A380, and they may very well be right in their assumptions. However, none of the US majors flying intercontinental routes are hardly in a position where they can afford to buy anything but jungle jets. And of those, I do belive both CO and AA have signed exclusivity deals with Boeing to secure rather hefty discounts, effectively leaving them out of the equation. If airlines like UA and NW should bounce back, both of them could possibly use the A380 on heavily slot constrained routes. That is, unless they wish to hand over the Heathrow, CDG, Frankfurt, Tokyo, Amsterdam etc. markets to the competitor. Virgin Atlantic, for instance, rely rather heavily on the A380 to boost their share of the Heathrow-Kennedy market.



BA and Virgin flies their 747-400s with business class on the upper-deck, to name but two carriers, and the aircraft is certified to carry M-class seats up there too (as used on domestic Japanese 747s). Noteably, it has never been subjected to an evac test with full capacity. As for the doors, my bad, it's 16 rather than 18. Still, 60% more doors for an aircraft holding 30% more passengers (in average airliner configuration - 390 for the 747 and 510 for the A380); I fail to see the problem! Will the A380 sail through evac certification? Of course not, at least not with 850 people onboard! Will it eventually pass, well, people whom I assume to be rather more clever than you and me in this particular field says it will, and I tend to acknowledge my personal limits.

I'm sorry but the A380 was a HUGE mistake on Airbus' part. Why did they build it? What airline, went to Airbus and Boeing and said

"hey we need a colossal aircraft that is capable of carrying up to 850 passengers, and by the way we are willing to pay nearly $300,000,000 a piece for it and force most airports to spend millions more to update themselves to handle the weight of such aircraft" ? The answer is no one. Airbus built the A380 for bragging rights and that's it. Now they are struggling to meet performance criteria and to create a market for it.

OK, so what are you going to do when you have to fly New York to Hong Kong? Sorry A380 can't do that. How about Sydney London? Sorry need a 777 for that one. I mean come on what was Airbus thinking?

As for your comment on airliners being overweight..I would challenge you to tell me what successful airliner had an overweight issue?

 

[EuroWheenie]

habu

What airlines? Probably only those of little to no significance to you like AF, LH, VS, QF, SQ and FX! Yes, a short and wholly undistinguished list. Say, you wouldn't happen to suffer from the "not invented here syndrome" do you?

But, to put your post into perspective, on what background did Boeing launch the 747? A failed bid to win a USAF freigther contest, and a promise by Pan Am to buy a large handful. As we all know, that was an equally disasterous decision, one that the kind people over in Seattle has undoubtedly regretted ever since.

You come across as the sort of person, if left to rule the world, would still see us living in caves and hoping for a lightning strike to start our nightly bonfire. Progress must be something you utterly detest!

New York to Hong Kong? Can be done, thank you very much. Not with a full load, but then again neither can a 747/777/A340.

London to Sydney? Yes, a 777LR can do it, but not Sydney-London with anything approaching a financially viable payload. The A380, by the way, is not designed to perform that route anyway. You also seem to have failed noticing the A380 offers cheaper cost-per-seat-mile (CASM) as opposed to the 747-400 or even the 747-8I (albeit Boeing is of course contesting that). As long as you can fill up an A380, why not earn the extra buck? That's why Emirates, Kingfisher, Qatar, Etihad, Korean Air, Air China etc have bought them. And for operation into slot constrained airports. The future major growth for aviation, in case you've failed to notice it, is not in the US but in Asia and the Middle East.

It astounds me that anyone working in this industry can actively hope any new aircraft will fail to succeed, merely because it's not produced in their own back yard. I'm all for the 787, and equally so for the A350. I belive the 747-8F will be a fantastic freighter, and I am equally convinced the A380 will be the people-mover of choice in the ultra-large segment. I also hope the 747-8I will find a home too, and whether or not Boeings sells more 737s than Airbus sells A32Xs doesn't really mean anything to me. I just hope they both sell well, which will indicate that the industry that puts beer and sandwiches on my table is doing allright.

 

[habubuaza]

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/boeing747.html

Let me point out that the evolutionary process of commercial jet production was spurred by military aviation for which the US dominated. Sorry, but true.

You are also basing alot of your A380 information on projected A380 performance data. 777 is PROVEN performance data just like the 747. Did you notice in the article where the 747 came from? The 747 is a result of competition (unkown in EuroLexicon, sorry couldn't resist) with lockheed for an Air Force request for that type of aircraft. Lockheed won with the C-5 (Maintenance Nightmare) See the difference?

I don't want the A380 to fail. I happen to like the A320, I was a fan of the A310-300 (not many fans, but I am one).

What I am trying to point out is Airbus' philosophy..."try to one up Boeing at any cost" really that's it. And with that philosophy will come heartache. Just try to make a good airplane. That's what Boeing tries to do and has done. Name one commercial airliner that Boeing built that was a commercial failure. See? I mean Airbus had all the Data in the world to see what they should have been concentrating on. Didn't they notice a drift toward 2 engine etops operations? It was obvious. What were they thinking to design the A340-300? Why? Didn't they see the erosion of the 747 on the ultra-long haul routes? You see what I am getting at? Diameterically oppose Boeing at every angle and do whatever it takes to give the appearance that your philosophy is superior. That is what Airbus cares about. It's unfortunate.

By the way can you show me that AF, LH, VS, QF, SQ had a real desire for an aircraft like the A380? I don't think so. But hey, this is my opinion. I can be totally wrong.

 

[RP 04]

747-400 is certified for 678 occupants, although that number of "live bodies" was never used to demostrate it in the certification process, there are always ways around it and Boeing found one of them, just like Airbus is trying with their evacuation demostration.

 

[EuroWheenie]

habu

Name one commercial airliner that Boeing built that was a commercial failure.

767-400. Yes, I appreciate it's a derivative, but a rather extensive one at that (wing modification, new MLG, new engines, new cabin, new cockpit).

didn't they notice a drift toward 2 engine etops operations?

Airbus pioneered ETOPS with the A310-300.

What were they thinking to design the A340-300? Why?

Why? Because the GE90 / RR Trent was not available at the time. What were they thinking? Satisfying airlines which either couldn't or wouldn't go for ETOPS. You will know that they developed the A340 and A330 at the same time. They needed 4 engines, as there wasn't an engine available which would satisfy the payload/range performance. One could argue it was Airbus starting the point-to-point trend with the A340, as it offered the range of a 747-400 with lower costs and fewer seats. Boeing struck gold with the 777-300ER, offering almost the same capacity as a 747 but at lower cost. Airbus went with the A340-600, but missed the mark performance wise. It's a philosopy question, not one of "one up manship". As it currently is, Boeing was shown to be right. Monday morning quarterbacking, as I belive the US term is, is a wonderful thing.

Didn't they see the erosion of the 747 on the ultra-long haul routes?

The so-called erosion came after the A340 was introduced into service. And frankly, the 744 is still very much active on long-haul high capacity flights. Please, look a bit outside the US.

Diameterically oppose Boeing at every angle and do whatever it takes to give the appearance that your philosophy is superior.

Would hardly call the A330-200 diameterically opposed. It did offer superior performance compared to the 767 and, I trust you will agree, blew that otherwise fine aeroplane right out of the water.

By the way can you show me that AF, LH, VS, QF, SQ had a real desire for an aircraft like the A380? I don't think so.

Those airlines ordering the aeroplane is a pretty good indicator to me. You don't honestly belive that Airbus shoved it down their collective throats?

Now I will be the first one to agree the 777-300ER offers superior performance in comparison with the A340-600. But in this case, and with the 777-200LR, it was Boeing playing catch-up. Airbus is now looking at a -600 with Trent 1000 engines and higher weights, reducing or even eliminating the advantage the -300ER holds. If you ask me, that's a Good Thing; both manufacturers pushing the envelope and each other, thereby offering better products for their customers.

 

[bocefus]

"The British may have built the Wing, but take a guess where it was designed."

Take all the guesses you like, the fact is, the A-380 wing was designed in the good old USA, Wichita to be exact.