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A word about Legacy pilots blaming LCC pilots for their companys' woes

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ty Webb
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Ty Webb

Hostage to Fortune
Joined
Dec 10, 2001
Posts
6,524
I am surprised that pilots who should know better, point their finger at a taxiing LCC airplane, and proclaim, "Those guys are the reason that we had to take concessions (or are losing our pensions, or have pilots furloughed, or whatever).

Afterall, we pilots did not make the decision to squander billions of dollars chasing the bottom customer (Delta). We did not suggest they waste over $100 million chasing a failed merger (UAL and USAir), then stuff $35 million into Steven Wolff's pockets, instead of suing him for a collossal blunder) (USair).

We did not fiddle while Rome burned, and burned, and burned, then pay McKinsey Consulting millions of dollars to com up with "TED". (UAL). We did not reward poor management by paying millions of dollars to individuals who couldn't run a Starbucks (Delta, UAL, USAirways). We did not put all of our growth into unprofitable RJ's that are more uncomfortable than the LCC's SNB aircraft (DAL, USAirways, CAL, NWA, oh, hell, all of 'em).

I'm forgetting now, what was our crime, again? Oh, yeah, we took a flying job at a new carrier who was hiring, offered us a job at a liveable wage, with the prospect of improving things over time through collective bargaining.

Now, I know. We should just sit on the sidelines, wait another three or four years until furloughees have been called back (maybe) and then rely on your loyalty to your fellow pilots to make sure that those of us who refused to fly for less than your Legacy pay are hired first, and will make up the $100K a year that we lost while we waited for 6 or 7 years. What's that, you say? We have to wait until all those guys who are flying the RJ's for you get hired first?

Hmmmmmmmm . . . . where do I sign up, again?
 
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You must have had an experience lately that causes you to write this?

It is almost as though you are trying to pick a fight with pilots from one of the majors. Or are you just making a casual observation.

If the former, I am sorry that you feel you need to stir the pot. It seems as though there are plenty of other things to do.
 
Ty,

Happy for you. Impressed that you saw the future so clearly before everyone else. Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back. Fly safe.
 
CMonBoard said:
You must have had an experience lately that causes you to write this?

It is almost as though you are trying to pick a fight with pilots from one of the majors. Or are you just making a casual observation.

If the former, I am sorry that you feel you need to stir the pot. It seems as though there are plenty of other things to do.
There have been recent posts on this board regarding rude comments made on the radio by certain pilots that are looking for someone to direct their anger and frustration at.

I remember hearing similar stuff as a student pilot that was directed against some of the Majors pilots regarding the "B Scale" contracts. I thought it was unprofessional then, and even more so now.

And I am NOT patting myself on the back, far from it. My point is that we are all pilots. We fly the airplanes. The companies do battle, we fly safely and try to get through our career with as few involuntary displacements as we can.
 
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Disregard

Ty Webb said:
There have been recent posts on this board regarding rude comments made on the radio by certain pilots that are looking for someone to direct their anger and frustration at.

I remember hearing similar stuff as a student pilot that was directed against some of the Majors pilots regarding the "B Scale" contracts. I thought it was unprofessional then, and even more so now.

And I am NOT patting myself on the back, far from it. My point is that we are all pilots. We fly the airplanes. The companies do battle, we fly safely and try to get through our career with as few involuntary displacements as we can.
Water on a duck's back. Asinine comments by anyone are best deflected by not re-engaging. It seems there's always someone wanting the last word. So what. Don't treat unprofessionalism with unprofessionalism. Let the frustrated ones simmer in their own anger.
 
Don't treat unprofessionalism with unprofessionalism.

Amen.

I suppose if you were to ask some legacy captain for a ride on his jumpseat (in the back of course) you would bring this up with him? I hope not. You should say nothing except thank you for his hospitality and take your seat. Be proud of your success but NEVER foist it upon another person whose company isn't so fortunate!

Let the people on the radio say what they will. By responding to it you only stoop to their level.
 
All I know is that it's the Delta pilots' fault - everything they do is EVIL and inspired by extreme greed and selfishness... They don't care for NOBODY but their greedy little selves. At least, this is what a DAL stew told me...
 
On Your Six said:
All I know is that it's the Delta pilots' fault - everything they do is EVIL and inspired by extreme greed and selfishness... They don't care for NOBODY but their greedy little selves. At least, this is what a DAL stew told me...
Isn't that what Delta management has said?
 
spanky2 said:
Ty,
Don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back. Fly safe.
spanky2, I don't think that Ty was attempting to pat himself on the back. Maybe you are responding to Ty and his previous posts, I don't know, but his words in this string were only an explaination of how he got there, "Oh, yeah, we took a flying job at a new carrier who was hiring, offered us a job at a liveable wage, with the prospect of improving things over time through collective bargaining." I just don't see any bragging in that statement.

I only interject because I agree with Ty. I, being a Spirit pilot, do not congratulate myself on having a job. I thank God that I have a job, I do thank not myself for my position. I know, and I believe that a lot of us LCC pilots know, that we got lucky. We took the best job offered to us at the time, and our timing happened to be right. It's that simple.

Please note the last part of Ty's last sentence. He said, "with the prospect of improving things over time through collective bargaining". I bring that up because I feel that the pilots at AirTran and Spirit (forgive me if I'm leaving some pilot group out) have used their collective bargaining power to improve their positions these last few years. I don't make as much money as I'd like, but we intend to continue to make contractual improvements.

To recap, pilots who happen to work for a LCC are not the reason for the success of the LCC's, nor for the lack of success of the legacy carriers. We didn't start the carriers, we just took the job they offered. Would you have done differently? BTW, I took my job before Sept 11, 2001 and only considered it a stepping stone. How many pilots never took a job as a stepping stone? The answer would be ZERO. I consider any airline/cargo pilot as a professional pilot and try to look past the uniform he happens to wear. I trust that we all do the same.

regards,
enigma
 
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enigma said:
To recap, pilots who happen to work for a LCC are not the reason for the success of the LCC's, nor for the lack of success of the legacy carriers. We didn't start the carriers, we just took the job they offered. You you have done differently? BTW, I took my job before Sept 11, 2001 and only considered it a stepping stone. How many pilots never took a job as a stepping stone? The answer would be ZERO. I consider any airline/cargo pilot as a professional pilot and try to look past the uniform he happens to wear. I trust that we all do the same.

Great post.
 
I also agree with Ty. I've seen an awful lot of mis-directed anger over the past few years. Overall pilots have a sense of entitlement that we deserve only the best and when we don't get it the anger spills over to convenient targets. This industry isn't being cheapened by lower-paying contracts, it's the economy and mismanagement. The poor contracts are an effect not a cause.

Try to play nice, y'all.
 
The legacy guys could have scope IN the RJs/small jets......

and thus ALPA dropped the ball.......


The same republican airline pilots that talk about free market forces are being pushed out of thier narrowbody jet careers so the RJs and small jets can come in...

Well here is your free market...adapt or make room for those who will.....
 
Here we go again

Rez O. Lewshun said:
The legacy guys could have scope IN the RJs/small jets......

and thus ALPA dropped the ball.......


The same republican airline pilots that talk about free market forces are being pushed out of thier narrowbody jet careers so the RJs and small jets can come in...

Well here is your free market...adapt or make room for those who will.....
Do you have something constructive to add to this thread or do you enjoy regurgitating the RJDC party line that JB spews here and on the ALPA boards?
 
DL_Infidel said:
Do you have something constructive to add to this thread or do you enjoy regurgitating the RJDC party line that JB spews here and on the ALPA boards?
Not sure about the RJDC mantra.... never really gave it much attention... what do they want to do?

But your

'battleship admiral and his 16 inch guns are going to protect the world'

aren't going to get any airports named after you.....
 
Ty Webb said:
We did not fiddle while Rome burned, and burned, and burned, then pay McKinsey Consulting millions of dollars to com up with "TED". (UAL). We did not reward poor management by paying millions of dollars to individuals who couldn't run a Starbucks (Delta, UAL, USAirways). We did not put all of our growth into unprofitable RJ's that are more uncomfortable than the LCC's SNB aircraft (DAL, USAirways, CAL, NWA, oh, hell, all of 'em).
The above quote makes me think some attitude seen may be in response to a bit of the stuff that gets doled out!

I do agree with one part of your statement, and that is that we are pilots - and pilots are pilots. So don't slam on a Legacy guy just because he works for a big four company. The toes you step on today may be attached to the rear end you must kiss tomorrow. ;) Many Legacy guys have learned this, but what goes around comes around and nobody is immune.

This all gets really old I suppose. Reminds me of the "brick and mortar" slams that got doled out to the fortune 100 companies by the dot com wonder kids in the late 90's before "dot Bomb" became a buzz word.

I wish we could have professional holidays where we chill out and just enjoy flying for a few days a year. Oh yeah, I do this as much as I can (sometimes impossible as it may be) anyway. Call me a slacker.
 
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EAP said:
No, you didn't "fiddle", you (well, not you personally, but the LCC boys with an attitude) just sat back and acted like you had all the answers, like in the above quote.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see where Ty said (the above referenced quote) that he had all of the answers. I don't even read his posts to say that any part of the problem was the fault of any pilot group.

Ty Webb said:
We did not fiddle while Rome burned, and burned, and burned, then pay McKinsey Consulting millions of dollars to com up with "TED". (UAL). We did not reward poor management by paying millions of dollars to individuals who couldn't run a Starbucks (Delta, UAL, USAirways). We did not put all of our growth into unprofitable RJ's that are more uncomfortable than the LCC's SNB aircraft (DAL, USAirways, CAL, NWA, oh, hell, all of 'em
I read the quote to say this: Legacy management has done a poor job. They are to blame for the problems legacy carriers face, not LCC pilots.

regards,
enigma
 
It seems straight forward to me, but I understand your question and here is how I see it. When you see a group throwing insults and kicking a company around verbally when they are down, the "team" that is employed by said company is going to take insult (insert certain Legacy pilots). If the team happens to be the pilots, then that is that - they are still employees and have their loyalties. Action equals reaction. Some individual LCC pilots may still feel the pain from slights that certain individual Legacy pilots doled out in previous years, so they keep the "game" alive and throw their assults when the tables are turned.


My assertion is that you have to actively chose to participate in this rhetoric, and if you chose to stay out, life will be better.
 
EAP said:
My assertion is that you have to actively chose to participate in this rhetoric, and if you chose to stay out, life will be better.
I concur, now what are we doing here? :-)

enigma
 

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