a new ALPA some ideas

[Sarsipius]

and ask an attorney to undercut a fellow attorney, it will not happen, they have standards.

[/quote]


Wow, so alpa members need to strive to reach the moral standard of lawyers....that's very very very sad.uke:

 

[FNG_that's me]

and ask an attorney to undercut a fellow attorney, it will not happen, they have standards.

Wow, so alpa members need to strive to reach the moral standard of lawyers....that's very very very sad.uke:

Nope, it's the non-alpa folks who need to keep up the standards...oops, too late.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Uhh, let's see: scheduling advisor, FO rep two terms, informational picketing organizer, grieve cord, and ultimately led my fellow pilots to pursue other representation by forming an in-house union. The in-house union lost a great deal of steam after 9-11 as most of the then dynamics were disrupted. Shortly there after I was hired JB.

In that time I worked with many of the Herndon staff. From aero med staff to Woerth. It is an organization that has many great members all fighting the wrong war. The war on each other. You cannot and will not change the culture in any material way because the very premis of a union is dysfunction from the beginning. That is the reason I came to JB. You must start with a company that does not deserve a union and build from that. It is not possible any other way.

I agree to a point. Management will only get a union if it "deserves" one and in the same vein, will get the kind of union it deserves (once it gets a union). I sincerely hope JB can continue to treat its employees well enough to keep a union off property. That means that they are not only "talking the talk" but "walking the walk" as well.

Political issues aside, your comment was initially about ALPA and its "experts." The staffers that do a lot of the grunt work are indeed experts in their respective fields. There are some bad apples of course (like in any organization) but if we are purely talking about the actuaries, safety engineers, benefits specialists, etc, then those folks are most certainly highly qualified in their respective areas. Those staffers aren't fighting any "war" on each other. They are just doing the dirty work that the pilots and the MEC's task them with. 90% of a pilots' issues with ALPA are really issues with their own management and MEC as well as the state of the industry in general. That is just my 2 cents of course...and there is obviously no shortage of pilots on here who have and will disagree with me on this issue.

-Neal

 

[pgcfii2002]

I know ... let's keep paying all the officers huge salaries while the pilots they represent all take pay cuts!!

I drew the line at $150K there are another 200+ ALPA employees making less than that. I will say that they have secretaries making Regional Captain wages. Total payroll was just shy of $40M.

Source: Department of Labor, Office of Labor Management Standards 2004 LM filings

Officers & Staff
Name Title Salary Benefits & Other Total Compensation
Duane Woerth President $ 415,026 $ 135,703 $ 550,729
Jalmer Johnson Geneal Manager $ 376,472 $ 4,299 $ 380,771
Jonatha Cohen Chief Counsel, D $ 368,645 $ 2,312 $ 370,957
Bruce York Director Represe $ 347,331 $ 7,141 $ 354,472
Spyrido Skiados Director, Commun $ 300,728 $ 5,049 $ 305,777
Kevin Barnhurst Director, Financ $ 296,153 $ 1,528 $ 297,681
Paul Hallisay Director Govern $ 289,197 $ 4,556 $ 293,753
Kenneth Cooper Asst Dir Represe $ 276,422 $ 12,413 $ 288,835
James Johnson Managing Attorne $ 278,174 $ 7,075 $ 285,249
William Roberts Asst Dir Represe $ 277,428 $ 6,392 $ 283,820
Stephen Crable Asst Dir Represe $ 262,384 $ 9,253 $ 271,637
Jeffrey Small Sr Contract Admi $ 252,492 $ 11,238 $ 263,730
Eugene Granof Managing Attorne $ 258,504 $ 2,441 $ 260,945
Jerry Anker Managing Attorne $ 258,466 $ 1,586 $ 260,052
David Vance Director R&i $ 250,810 $ 3,129 $ 253,939
John O'brien Director Enginee $ 248,420 $ 2,447 $ 250,867
James Wilson Asst Dir Represe $ 241,223 $ 8,022 $ 249,245
Elizabe Koby Managing Attorne $ 240,722 $ 7,642 $ 248,364
Howard Hagy Dir Engineering $ 245,456 $ 1,782 $ 247,238
Seth Rosen Director, Ipsc $ 220,224 $ 13,231 $ 233,455
Robert Nichols Sr Contract Admi $ 226,613 $ 3,778 $ 230,391
Patrick Brennaman Sr Contract Admi $ 227,915 $ 1,557 $ 229,472
Robert Bailey Sr Attorney $ 224,618 $ 1,994 $ 226,612
Ana Mcahron-schu Director Economi $ 209,022 $ 11,750 $ 220,772
Arthur Laflamme Sr Representativ $ 208,365 $ 5,521 $ 213,886
G Clayt Warner Sr Attorney $ 210,882 $ 741 $ 211,623
Stephen Nagrotsky Sr Contract Admi $ 210,306 $ 710 $ 211,016
Robert Christy Manager, Economi $ 202,360 $ 8,266 $ 210,626
Kevin Fitzpatrick Sr Contract Admi $ 206,588 $ 2,618 $ 209,206
Marcus Migliore Sr Attorney $ 207,066 $ 1,870 $ 208,936
Richard Domholt Sr Contract Admi $ 203,106 $ 5,610 $ 208,716
Steven Hodgson Sr Field Represe $ 200,557 $ 5,356 $ 205,913
Charles Murphy Director, Info T $ 194,433 $ 2,320 $ 196,753
Jan Briel Director, Human $ 195,528 $ 757 $ 196,285
Brendan Kenny Sr Legislative R $ 191,577 $ 3,935 $ 195,512
John Schleder Sr Contract Admi $ 190,866 $ 2,236 $ 193,102
Robert Plunkett Sr Contract Admi $ 190,383 $ 655 $ 191,038
Robert Lipsey Pension Inv Coor $ 183,037 $ 4,526 $ 187,563
William Elliot Sr Contract Admi $ 183,294 $ 3,769 $ 187,063
Elwyn Woody Sr Benefits Atto $ 175,181 $ 3,413 $ 178,594
Frank Voyack Sr Legislative R $ 171,447 $ 3,275 $ 174,722
Suzanne Kalfus Sr Attorney $ 169,672 $ 1,059 $ 170,731
Joan Bettenburg Sr Cont Administ $ 167,088 $ 793 $ 167,881
David Holtsman Sr Contract Admi $ 164,779 $ 2,696 $ 167,475
James Medley Manager, Sys Dev $ 166,749 $ 50 $ 166,799
James Connolly Field Represtati $ 160,437 $ 6,331 $ 166,768
Jim Stewart Air Safety Coord $ 160,101 $ 6,120 $ 166,221
Darrell Green Sr Contract Admi $ 165,027 $ 487 $ 165,514
Christo Beebe Vp Finance $ 0 $ 164,947 $ 164,947
Richard Harrell Manager, Info Te $ 164,366 $ 540 $ 164,906
Jeffrey Macdonald Supervisor Colle $ 161,944 $ 2,515 $ 164,459
Elizabe Ginsburg Sr Attorney $ 163,103 $ 1,052 $ 164,155
Paul Rice Vp Administrati $ 0 $ 162,562 $ 162,562
William Edmunds Human Performanc $ 159,272 $ 1,802 $ 161,074
Jane Schraft Sr Contract Admi $ 159,277 $ 1,358 $ 160,635
William Phanbuf Sr Staff Enginee $ 157,048 $ 3,084 $ 160,132
Jerry Wright Manager, Securit $ 158,694 $ 1,206 $ 159,900
Robert Stiegel Sr Staff Enginee $ 157,666 $ 1,006 $ 158,672
Don Mcclure Air Safety Coord $ 149,926 $ 5,828 $ 155,754
Everett Barber Contract Adminis $ 149,926 $ 4,114 $ 154,040
James Barnett Director, Info S $ 153,997 $ 0 $ 153,997
James Lobsenz Sr Attorney $ 152,943 $ 374 $ 153,317
J Gary Dinunno Supervisor, Maga $ 150,966 $ 1,008 $ 151,974
Richard Pavel Field Representa $ 146,567 $ 4,944 $ 151,511

Jesus....so this is where all of your dues end up???

 

[Positive Rate]

Maybe xjhawk worded or said things a little out of order or some things that are unrealistic....but give him a break at least he is brainstorming....maybe you (all the complainers and people griping) make some "real" positive suggestions or more brainstorming to help. xjhawk is just tryin to start the brainstorming process, thats all i see. I thought thats what a union is about to brainstorm work together as a team hence "union".

 

[GoFaster]

National Seniority List

A national seniority list is the ultimate answer. We will never have a better moment in history to get this accomplished besides right now. If we are ever going to be strong again, we have to stop fighting against each other. You think the longshoremen under bid each other? Maybe that's why they are making 100K a year slinging boxes and we have copilots make 18k. We all, each and everyone of us ought to be ashamed of ourselves, our collective greed is what got us here. Hell maybe we deserve this for our years of arrogance.

 

[hoover]

some ideas i have about ALPA and our slide to the bottom.

1 any 401K or retirement accounts should be administered by ALPA, to keep the companies from touching them and/or not funding them properly.

2 There should be a set minimum for seats and pay. That will take the companies abilitiy to use pilots pay as a way to lower costs to "compete".

3. any non alpa must conform with the established pay rate minimums or their members are banned from ALPA in the future. ANy ALpa carrier who does not comply, will be forced out of ALPA and their members who stay with that carrier, will be given a date they must leave that carrier or be bannned from further membership in ALPA. Ofcourse, those pilots would have preferencial hiring at ALPA carriers.

If you agree with these reforms, please forward them to your ALPA rep. Something needs to be done with our race to the bottom. for those of you at the majors that think this problem is beneith you, remember, shoot rolls down hill, but when it hits hard enough at the bottom, it splashes up to the top, with an end result of shoot on everyone!

Why would you want someone else in charge of your retirement? Didn't you learn from United, Delta, USAir, etc?

 

[hoover]

The above is the exact same arguement NW management used with the courts saying NW management cannot take any more pay cuts ( while still asking for more from the pilots) a matter of fact that is the same argument DL has used to get management severance packages approved in BK court.

But that doesn't make the argument any less valid. If you want talented, skilled and experienced people working for you, then you gotta pay the money. After all they are trying to make a living just like you.

 

[hoover]

This raises an interesting conundrum, grasshopper!

Should ALPA be a good employer?

Do our employees deserve the same consideration we are demanding from our managements? We're getting hammered. Does that mean we should hammer the people who work for us?

Some of the lawyers on that list are the lawyers we take with us to the negotiating table, where we fight to prevent management from taking advantage of us just because times are bad right now.

If we use management's argument against our lawyers now, is it reasonable to expect their dedication to our cause in the future?

That's an excellent point! If you screw your own employees, what right do you have to complain about your employer screwing you?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A national seniority list is the ultimate answer. We will never have a better moment in history to get this accomplished besides right now. If we are ever going to be strong again, we have to stop fighting against each other. You think the longshoremen under bid each other? Maybe that's why they are making 100K a year slinging boxes and we have copilots make 18k. We all, each and everyone of us ought to be ashamed of ourselves, our collective greed is what got us here. Hell maybe we deserve this for our years of arrogance.

A National Sen. List is a double edged sword. Do a search on this message board. It is easily discredited as it is a bad idea.

Fianally, if a National Sen list was THE ultimate answer... then why does it not exist? Have we been waiting for a message board moniker to enlighted us all?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Jesus....so this is where all of your dues end up???

Please take this is the most respectful manner possible:

It's none of your business. If you don't have an ALPA card, it ain't your money.

 

[surplus1]

Political issues aside, your comment was initially about ALPA and its "experts." The staffers that do a lot of the grunt work are indeed experts in their respective fields. There are some bad apples of course (like in any organization) but if we are purely talking about the actuaries, safety engineers, benefits specialists, etc, then those folks are most certainly highly qualified in their respective areas. Those staffers aren't fighting any "war" on each other. They are just doing the dirty work that the pilots and the MEC's task them with. 90% of a pilots' issues with ALPA are really issues with their own management and MEC as well as the state of the industry in general. That is just my 2 cents of course...and there is obviously no shortage of pilots on here who have and will disagree with me on this issue.

-Neal

Neal,

You and I have often disagreed on "things ALPA" but in this last post you are "right on".

Whatever problems ALPA may have, its "staff" is not one of them. Those folks ARE experts in their respective fields. They are hard working, loyal and dedicated, and the overwhelming majority of them do an excellent job (whenever they are allowed to by the "politicians").

Those "axes" that I have to grind with the ALPA are ALL with the politicians and the political structure of the union, not with the staff. Every last one of the "politicians" to whom I refer is an airline pilot.

There may be a few high-paid staffers who should not be in the positions they hold but again, those are there because of the "politicians" that appoint them. In any bureaucracy controlled by politicians there is a certain amount of cronyism. The ALPA is certainly a bureaucracy and no exception to that reality. Fix the political problems and the staff is otherwise A-1.

Another thing that many of the complainers (about staff pay) do not seem to know is the fact that a majority of ALPA's staff is unionized. Even the Contract Administrators, who are all lawyers, belong to a labor union. These are in-house unions, but they are recognized, they have contracts, and they negotiate with ALPA management, just as pilots negotiate with our managements. ALPA can't just change their pay and work rules or fire them just because it feels like it.

Granted the staff unions have a lot of leverage, simply because the threat of a strike or a picket line by one of their "unions" against the union of ALPA would be very bad PR. It gives them many advantages at the bargaining table.

Again, ALPA's "problems" are political and all of the "politicians" are PILOTS, not staff members.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Again, ALPA's "problems" are political and all of the "politicians" are PILOTS, not staff members.

Surplus1, good post.

Are the "problems" really problems. ALPA is a political organization operating in the political world. The Agenda of Air Line Pilots is handled politically.

Sure there are inefficiences just like we have in our political government.

But the politcal system is the one we've got until the better one.

A huge revelation to many pilots is that ALPA IS political. Not sure what they thought is was, or what they wanted it to be..... but it is what it is....

The ignorance of the ALPA membership is needless. The arrogance is self defeating.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

In U.S. airline fights, pilots often the last workers standing

Source: Comtex News Network (Associated Press Worldstream)

Airlines are a big union industry, and the big dog in every airline union fight is the pilots. So it's not surprising that they ended up as the last holdouts in the pay-cut negotiations at Northwest and Delta airlines.

The biggest pilot union, the Air Line Pilots Association, has a reputation for being a tough negotiator, but the list of its largest members reads like a who's-who of recent airline bankruptcies _ US Airways Group Inc., UAL Corp.'s United Airlines, Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp.

On Friday, Northwest and its pilots reached a pay-cut deal. Delta's request to throw out its pilot contract was headed for a mediator.

To stay alive, bankrupt airlines have leaned _ hard _ on employees for pay cuts and more flexible work rules. Pilots, who can make $150,000 (?124,800) or more, have been a prime target, putting ALPA in one of its toughest fights since its founding in 1931.

ALPA isn't showing any signs of backing away from the fight. President Duane Woerth rallied Northwest pilots in Minneapolis on Feb. 23, telling them that the airline industry is poised for better times and that they'll be a part of it.

Mechanics and flight attendants generally haven't been able to shut airlines down with strikes. Pilots can. And they know it.

"They are hard and sophisticated negotiators," said Ben Hirst, who was Northwest's vice president for labor relations during a round of concessions in 1993.

"The difficulty in negotiating with them is, if they believe their position is right, they really will take it to the mat," Hirst said. "There's a lot of testosterone."

ALPA can throw a phalanx of lawyers, analysts and actuaries at high-stakes negotiations like the ones last week with Delta and Northwest airlines.

The pilots union has a history "of looking at the airline from an economic standpoint, from an investment standpoint, of really trying to understand the business they're negotiating with," Hirst said.

Woerth said several full-time staffers were working with Northwest union negotiators in New York, and about 60 staffers worked full-time on Northwest talks at ALPA headquarters, with plans to shift their attention to Delta talks next.

But all those union experts can't force airlines to make money. Older airlines (the ones started before government deregulation in the late 1970s) have been in deep trouble in recent years, pummeled by a punishing mix of terrorism fears, rising fuel prices, and discount carriers who grab lucrative routes and often pay their employees less.

The only time that was nearly as bad for ALPA was when Continental broke a pilots' strike in 1983, said George Hopkins, a recently retired airline labor historian at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Illinois.

"But I think now is worse. At least there was a semblance of congressional support for labor unions in the 1980s," he said.

And he said pilots face a danger at least as bad as pay cuts now _ slashed pensions. Federal rules force pilots to retire at age 60, before they're eligible for Social Security or Medicare. So their pension is crucial to their retirement, but those payments are slashed when bankrupt carriers slough off their pensions on the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation.

While ALPA is the largest pilots' union, it isn't dominant. Pilots at AMR Corp.'s American Airlines _ the United States' largest _ and Southwest Airlines Co. each have their own unions. And many of the newer discount carriers are not ALPA-represented.

"ALPA has been slowly eroding in overall power," said Alan Bender, who teaches airline labor relations at Embry Riddle Aeronautical University. And a loosening of rules barring foreign airlines from flying within the U.S. could hand more pilot jobs to non-ALPA pilots, he said.

Hopkins, the historian, said ALPA hasn't had a friend in politics since Republicans took over Congress in 1994, and unions generally have been representing a shrinking share of the work force.

"I have a good deal of respect for Woerth. He's a keen student of the history of his union and his profession," Hopkins said.

"He understands where the industry has been, and where it's at right now. But I don't think anybody knows where it's going."