A near miss...

[English]

A near mid air...

Hoping someone here can educate me about the ways of the world...


I was doing a visual approach into a class D airport that lies beneath the class B airspace. A Citation had just departed the same airport and was climbing in my general vicinity. The approach controller told the Citation to stop his climb at 3,000 feet for opposite direction traffic on the visual approach. The controller called me with a traffic alert, traffic 12 o'clock, a Citation, restricted at 3,000. I was descending through 3,500. I leveled off (3300 feet and then initatiated a climb back up to 3,500, while concurring calling, "I'm at 3,330. I'll climb back up to 3,500, negative contact."

The Citation, it turns out, did not stop his climb at 3,000, but continued his climb while barely missing me. We both made agressive manuevers to avoid hitting each other. I saw the belly of his aircraft very clearly as he went overheard.

The controller didn't do anything wrong, as far as I can tell, because I heard him tell the Citation to maintain 3,000, and the Citation read back the clearance properly. For some reason, this guy continued to climb anyway.

I reported to the controller a near-miss and said I wanted to file a report. Another controller's voice came over the radio and handed me off to the tower, with no mention of my comment that I wanted to file a near-mid air collision.

When I called the appoach controllers after landing, they explained to me that the departing Citation was VFR. I understand that controllers provide no separation between IFR and VFR traffic in the airspace we were in. I also understand that altitude directives are advisory in nature to VFR aircraft, much like headings and so forth. But it concerns me that this pilot read back that he would maintain and altitude and then didn't, almost hitting me.

I was told if I wanted to file the NMAC, I'd have to go to the FSDO. So my question is, if I file a NMAC, what happens then?

 

[propilot]

near mid-air

There will be an investigation by the FSDO and the controlling authority invloved. You will be interviewed either in person or over the phone, maybe both. If you didn't do anything wrong, that will be the end of it. If someone was in the wrong, it all depends...

 

[MarineGrunt]

LOL!

BTW- Howdja get your FO job with 500hrs? - not busting your balls, just curious...

 

[bigD]

LOL - I've been waiting for citationkid to come in here saying, "Well, when *I* fly the Citation...blah blah blah..."

You beat him to it!

 

[chperplt]

That's funny.. As I'm reading through this thread, I'm thinking the same thing about citationkid..

 

[T-Gates]

That's why 15 year olds shouldn't be flying Citations.

Sorry, had to take the shot.

That was some grade A quality shiot!!!

 

[501261]

I also understand that altitude directives are advisory in nature to VFR aircraft, much like headings and so forth.

Not so, if you are given an ATC instruction, even under VFR, you are required to follow it. However, under a lot of VFR situations you are not required to participate in ATC services; but if you are participating in ATC services you are required to follow ATC instructions according to FAR 91.123(b)

This guy “may” have violated is 91.123b. Even though the guy was VFR, once he received an ATC instruction or clearance he is required to comply with it.

I was told if I wanted to file the near-miss, I'd have to go to the FSDO. So my question is, if I file a near-miss, what happens then?

Personally, I’m always hesitant to call the FSDO about anything, just opens up the possibility of having your own actions questioned. Here's what I’d do, try to find the aircraft’s N number and track down the pilot. Talk to the pilot, be nice and reasonable, hopefully he scared himself just as bad as you did, and he’ll be very apologetic. Chalk it up as a lesson learned. On the other hand if the guy is some lunatic and thinks he can do no wrong, well then I might not be sure I want to share the sky with this guy and maybe a call to the FSDO is in order.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: Re: A near miss...

Personally, I’m always hesitant to call the FSDO about anything, just opens up the possibility of having your own actions questioned. Here's what I’d do, try to find the aircraft’s N number and track down the pilot. Talk to the pilot, be nice and reasonable, hopefully he scared himself just as bad as you did, and he’ll be very apologetic. Chalk it up as a lesson learned. On the other hand if the guy is some lunatic and thinks he can do no wrong, well then I might not be sure I want to share the sky with this guy and maybe a call to the FSDO is in order.

Second this comment. Only time I've got the FSDO involved was when I had a confrontation with the same Bonanza pilot on two separate instances. He was a butthead when I tried to talk with him the first time. The second, I wrote a letter (you'll have to write it all in a letter if like my situation). But as others have alluded to, you better have your sh## in order. You may get the crosshairs directed on you before it's over.

Also, it may be the Citation pilot knows someone higher up than you or is a big-shot lawyer, etc. and could make your life real difficult.

 

[PA-44Typed]

FlyChicaga
“That's why 15 year olds shouldn't be flying Citations.

Sorry, had to take the shot. ”

And that’s why 500-hour pilots shouldn’t be flying SAABs.
Sorry, had to take the shot.

 

[Joseph II]

IMHO...

I would be thankful I'm still alive and call it a day.

I see no need to bring the FAA into it.

 

[402drivr]

Just live and learn. If you involve the feds they could find error on your part and investigate you. Happens all the time.

 

[English]

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate everyone's input.

 

[Traumahawk]

Wouldn't this be a Near Hit ?

One of those terms.....Kinda like pre-boarding.......what, do you get on before you get on? --Carlin

Don't give the FSDO the satisfaction.....chalk it up to experience and assuming everyone around you is an idiot.

--- T-Hawk

 

[wickedpilot]

T-Hawk, you beat me to it.

English, if it were a "near miss" that means you actually had the mid-air. In your case, it was a near hit. George Carlin spells out the logic to the correct phraseology in his comedy bit.

 

[prodigal]

FWIW

You can also make a report anonomously by calling the FAA Aviation Safety Hotline @ 800-255-1111.
Not saying you should, just that you can.

 

[501261]

What does NMAC mean?

Near Mid Air Collision

 

[Timebuilder]

You can call the hotline, and you can file the "NASA" form, too.

It would not be a "near hit". Here's why.

The aircraft came near one another, but they were not close enough to hit. Instead, they were far enough from one another to miss. So we say near miss.

If we were saying nearly miss, then the Carlin idea would be correct. We would then instead say it was a nearly hit. SO much of his comedy is predicated on making subtle assumptions that are wrong, which make his logic seem right.

Most satirists use this technique to set up a false premise from which they can boldly proceed. The other technique is to purposefully declare the incorrect conlusion to a question as if it is correct. Al Franken does this, too.

So, if you were near the Citation, but it was a miss, it is still a near miss.

 

[eaglefly]

If both aircraft are in VFR conditions (you accepted a visual approach), first and foremost it is the resposibility of the pilots to "see and avoid" other aircraft regardless of whether you (or them) were operating on an IFR flight plan.

It sounds as though you did that to the best of your ability. The "near miss" was a result of another pilots actions. You can file a report but, I doubt it will result in very much jeopardy on your end.

 

[Badger]

don't be a baby.

You were doing your part and avoided him despite the atc instruction. Don't be such a crybaby. People do make mistakes in airplanes, how'd you like it if somebody cried for big brother to step in if it were you on the other end of the stick.

Don't play hero to the fsdo, they will be equally critical of you no matter what ocurred.

 

[English]

Sorry, I don't consider ignoring an altitude directive and then almost hitting me a "mistake".

Crybaby? Is that really called for?

 

[Badger]

near miss.

no. I'm sorry for the uncalled for comment. I guess on a more productive note from what I've noticed...

Loss of separation & FSDO actions...

Rule 1: the controller is fellow FAA, don't go after him no matter what. It's serious business when an atc'er gets a black mark.(like it isn't for a pilot?)

Rule 2: Airline vs. 135 ... go after the 135, he doesn't have the union behind him, an easy way to place fault and close the issue.

Rule 3: The controller is in paperwork avoidance mode. (i.e. bury the incident).

I guess it's a lesson for dilligence in VFR conditions. In your own best interest, fsdo's are to be avoided.

 

[chperplt]

Badger,

You're pretty knowledgeable on loss of separation and FSDO actions. How many times in your 2700 hours have you caused a loss of separation? I'm guessing by your comments to English that you've done it more than once.

 

[avbug]

He may sound like it, but his comments aren't accurate. The FAA doesn't refrain from taking action against controllers, but in this case it appears that the controller did nothing that would warrant any action taken.

The other aircraft was VFR. The poster was on a visual approach. See and avoid is THE rule weather IFR or VFR. In this case, it's clearly the law.

No paint was traded. THAT is a near miss (it ceases to be a miss when fabric or metal gets traded).

The poster asks a legitimate question; what happens when one lodges a NMAC report. No need to jump all over him about that.

In this case, an investigation involving the other pilot, the poster, and the controller would be warranted, and action would be taken depending on the outcome of what was learned, and the attitudes of each party involved. Always remember, "attitude of compliance." It's very possible to be the reporting party and still come out on the short end, all based on attitude.

Most of the time what pilots classify as a near miss really isn't. Personally, its not a near miss until you can identify the type of sunglasses the other pilot is wearing. It ceases to be a miss if you come away from the meeting wearing his sunglasses, and he's got your eyes...