A National Regional pilots Union

[jukebox]

Skywest pilots are currently trying to certify their in house union known as SAPA. The hope is that it could eventually lead to a possible National regional union. What are the thoughts from ASA, COMAIR, Air Wisky, ACA, pilots about such a merger of regional pilots.

 

[The Penguin]

The money we could generate from dues would be pale in comparison to Alpa. What would it accomplish? Would it be just to fight Alpa on everything? If thats the case, then lets just write the lawyers a check right now.

 

[ATRCA]

Listen, ALPA has problems, particularly when it comes to equal representation but this is an absurd idea.

You could never generate the funds needed to provide what ALPA provides. Not to mention there would be a long and arduous struggle to gain the respenct ALPA has gained in its 70+ yrs history. Bad idea. I personally would have no interest in joining and I doubt many of my CoEx co-workers would opt for it either.

 

[Beechnut]

I agree. ALPA has problems, but they also supported our strike efforts and helped us get a good regional contract. I would not dump them for a start-up union.

Fix the problem, don't abandon it.


S.

 

[Bluto]

Aren't ALPA's big money-makers kind of the problem for the regionals? It seems to me that when two companies have goals that are in opposition to one another, they shouldn't be represented by the same organization. Who will ALPA side with? The regional? With their relatively small dues? Or the major? I personally have had no real problems with ALPA, but many regional pilots feel that ALPA doesn't represent their interests.

 

[PDTGIMP]

ALPA IS THE WORST!

I've been a loyal servant of my ALPA MEC, and watched as "my" union screwed us, Piedmont, and our W.O. partners at ALG. (PSA already had a limp contract so they don't count-although they are a good bunch of guys and equally screwed by J4J!) J4J, boy that sure was a terrific idea-I mean replacing me and my fellow pilots to give jobs to the higher paid mainline freaks-logic at it best.

Then there's the poor boys at CCAIR. Screwed by Mesa, they reach a TA, the pilots vote FOR it, and ALPA National, of course, wouldn't sign it. There going to hit the street Nov. 4th and we're going to pick up there flying-sorry guys!

Then look at ASA/Comair with scope resets, and yes even ACA is going to grow into problems-in fact the CEO of ACA wrote an op ed piece in Pro Pilot urging for scope relief and provided a very good reasoning for not only allowing more RJ's-BUT demonstrated how more RJ's can allow for more growth on the mainline level.

BUT ALPA, wonderful ALPA hates RJ and regional pilots (maybe it's time for new leadership)! Just think of all the lawsuits against our union by our memebers-that's NOT good! Oh yeah, POTOMAC AIR-alter ego, we sue, ALPA likes it now 'cause they're going to be an ALPA carrier-mo' money, mo' money-we can't sue now-THX ALPA.

In there defense, ALPA is good for improving work rules-but they should butt out of the political issues cause all they do is screw the lower paid regional pilots-and protect the higher paid "heavy" drivers. It reminds me of the old A-scale, B-scale employed by AMR-speaking of AMR look no further than the Eagle drivers-are they getting screwed or what!

Oh well, I'm going to learn how to drive a truck.

 

[EMB120FO]

I think a regional airline union would be the best thing to happen to regionals since the RJ. The amount of money that a regional union could generate would not even matter if all the airlines were onboard. ALPA is always going to side with the major. They are the ones with the bigger paychecks, hence more $$$ for ALPA. Any regional represented by ALPA also deals with "Scope," which is also because of ALPA. The only reasons a union even exists...is that...it's a union. Everyone is united, therefore managers have no choice when all the employees are focused on change. The problem with Eagle is that although they are APA, they are under one umbrella...AMR ='s ALPA. They might as well be paying ALPA union dues instead. My friends at SkyWest love their job, get paid well, and have some of the best working conditions in the industry. They also haven't furloughed a single pilot, and are about to start hiring again. Why....no union....no ALPA. My point of this is that we at regionals might be here for a while, therefore we need to look after our best interests, just like the majors do. We need to stick together, and look at new ways of doing things. Fly safe.

 

[MetroSheriff]

The problem with Eagle is that although they are APA, they are under one umbrella...AMR ='s ALPA. They might as well be paying ALPA union dues instead.

I think you have it backwards kemosabee. Eagle is ALPA, mainline is APA.

 

[sleepy]

In the short term RALPA would not have the financial resources or political power that ALPA enjoyes. In the long term RALPA could develope into a powerful force and a better representative of regional pilots than ALPA couldl ever be. It is clear to me that regional pilots will always be second class at ALPA.

ALPA likes to represent regional pilots because it is the most effective way to control us.

There are other options out there; TWU and Teamsters. You don't necessarily have to start from scratch with a new union.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Hey emb120fo, how come Comair, ASA and ACA are all hiring, and all have a union called ALPA? You say Skywest MIGHT start hiring again, and it's because they have no union? You think a separate "regional" union is a great idea, care to tell us why?

We are part of ALPA because it's the airline pilots' union. It's not perfect, but it's the best around for a lot of reasons allready mentioned. I suppose a "regional" union would give us more say in our own union, but it wouldn't stop our big brothers from hurting us. In fact, it would make it easier for them. So, we would go from having a little bit of say in what they do, to having no say. Why do you guys see this as a benefit? We should be in the same union the big boys are in because we are all airline pilots. Starting a "regional" union would only serve to separate us more, and keep everything unequal. This is a really bad idea.

Why don't you guys start helping with the solution, instead of trying to make more problems for all of us?

 

[Pileit]

The money we could generate from dues would be pale in comparison to Alpa. What would it accomplish? Would it be just to fight Alpa on everything? If thats the case, then lets just write the lawyers a check right now.

Money and power are at the root of this problem, but maybe not in the way you think. Sure Alpa has deep pockets, and it uses those pockets to lure the regional pilot to march in step. But the relationship is more like that of the heroine dealer to the junkie. Junkie gets some occasional "stuff" but the price is an enslaved life.

A regional union is a very interesting idea. I may not be the answer, but is definitely worthy of discussion.

 

[miller22]

A regional airline union would mean ALPA could run rampant with SCOPE. At least now there's a conflict of interest, which gives us some power. I think Regional Airlines are a scourge in ALPA's eyes and they'd love to dump us, and if we do that for them, we lose any power over the most important issue...scope.

 

[Slick]

Are you suggesting that ALPA hasn't run rampant with scope already??!!??
If a RALPA was formed, it seems to me that we wouldn't be talking about a conflict of interest, but rather a clear anti-trust violation, (a.k.a. "scope clause"), entered into by the parties to the contract, (i.e. mainline and mainline pilots), And that anti-trust violation would have long ago rendered the scope portion of the contract void and unenforceable.
Of couse, I'm not a lawyer. I just play one on t.v.

 

[wafu39]

You guys don't seem to get the big picture!

Let me say that I flew 9 years with 2 regionals before being lucky enough to be hired by a major, so I know where you're coming from, but you have to keep things in perspective.

I guarantee that almost every regional pilot out there wants to eventually get on with a major airline. The question is WHY?

For the money, schedule and retirment right?

Well who do you think negotiated all these great things, and would we have them without ALPA - ABSOLUTELY NOT!

If the majors keep giving flying to the regionals there will be less of these jobs available, so don't you think it's better to protect these jobs, for everyone's long term career prospects.

I don't want to sound like I'm anti RJ or get into a scope argument, I think all regional flying should be in jets and the pilots should be well paid to do it.

The point is that hopefully in the future you will fly for a major and reap the benefits of ALPA membership.

I am currently on furlough and even though ALPA may be far from perfect, at least you have contract rules and protections to work with, unlike the pt135 crap that I am dealing with right now!

You really don't know how lucky you are to be at an ALPA regional and you have to be able to think of your whole career, not just the next few years.

Keep the faith!

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
Starting a "regional airline" pilots union is only going to perpetuate the same us vs. them mentality that has brought the industry to where it is today.
Even if the events of 9-11 never occured the airline industry, like the tech stocks was overvalued in labor contracts, capacity and infrastructure. The airline industry is being forced to re-think an entire paradigm in a very short period of time. The adjustment is going to be quite painful and in my personal opinion the worst is still looming on the horizon.
The world, our nation and our outlook for our future has changed in a very rapid amount of time. Whether we like it or not things will never be the same again. Keeping this thought in mind, it is going to take some leadership on the part of both management and the rank and file to steer the industry through the difficult times. Unfortunately, I have my reservations about this being a reality and not pure fantasy. I honestly don't know if we've learned very much in the past year, because of the continuous bickering amongst ourselves that ultimately will lead nowhere.
What is even more distressing to me is how many times has an individual spoken of how much they enjoy flying? or what a privilege it is to live in a country that allows the opportunity to do so? It appears that many of us feel like we are "owed" something or that because the guys over in another company are getting this, so it's just not fair! Pretty freaking sad if you ask me...
for those of you that want to flame me for saying so go right ahead...I served my country for 20 years as a flight crewmember, and flown GA for over 20 years and flying has and never will be something I do for the "lifestyle". The next time you look with disdain on another pilot in uniform from a rival company, union or whatever reason. Remember that neither of you were in uniform on your first solo. Just someone enjoying the moment...

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

"Football is my life, but only when it's pure and good" paraphrased from the movie "Varisty Blues" Think about that the next time your airplane bursts through the clouds into a brilliant sunlit, blue sky...

 

[Pileit]

You guys don't seem to get the big picture!

wafu39,

I understand what you're saying but need some more detail. It sounds as if you believe that in this industry there are "haves" and "have nots." And that the "have nots" should accept their fate now for the future hope of becoming one of the "haves." I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand.

Because, my view is that pay/compensation disparity is a cancer to this industry. The "haves" get way too much and the "have nots" get way too little. Personally, I'd much rather see all pilots earn a good living than have some get rich while many others languish in poverty.

I welcome discussions of a regional union if it will stimulate thought/action on how to fix the gross pay/compensation structure that currently exists.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
My thesis stems form the fact that airline union contracts have been traditionally based upon achieving parity. How many times have you read about pilots using the contracts at Delta, NW, etc... as the basis for a pay raise? Doesn't it sound alot like the glass ceiling that has driven professional athletes salaries (and airline CEOs for that matter) out of sight?
Typically, the pilots represent about 10-15% of the workforce of an airline, but in some case will take up to 30% of the total payroll. Just what is a reasonable salary for a professonal pilot and how does one quantify it? A very difficult question. As an enlisted crewmember my pay was far less than the officer/pilot, but was far more than a typical regional jet FO with about the same number of years in service when you factored in my various allowances, medical/dental etc...
Looking from an historical perspective the airlines were the penultimate olgilopoly(sic), and has labor didn't adjust very quickly when deregulation kicked in. Airline entrprenuers (a loose term when applied to people like Stephen Wolf, Carl Ichan and Frannk Lorenzo) knew that labor costs were going to be the difference between profitibility and bankruptcy.
Human nature being what it is. Many have found it difficult and academically impossible to give up their respective "rice bowls" to contract their compensation expectations in the so-called "new" economy because ALPA is still trying to conduct itself in the same manner that it did 20 years ago. As long as this trend continues any real change is going to be impossible.
This whole idea of a regional jet pilot union, while good intentioned from their own perspective is simply more of the same "rice bowl" mentality. I recall a similar thread where a gentleman suggested that the airline executives are silently smirking to themselves as the entire airline pilot community bickers and threatens to implode upon itself.
It would appear to me that this regional jet "thing" is going to be the way of the future. USAirways has announced a major part of it's restructuring to include a heavy order of RJs to serve more point-to-point markets with less emphasis on costly and delay vulnerable hubs.
I don't know where that is going to lead in terms of salaries, but ALPA looks like they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep the scope limits in place and hence the salary structure. I don't think that the RJ union thing is going to correct that. Of course, I'm only speculating, but it wouldn't seem that ALPA has done much to me, except increase it's own coffers.

Regards...

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[Slick]

Quote:
"The point is that hopefully in the future you will fly for a major and reap the benefits of ALPA membership."



If I pay ALPA dues , I expect ALPA representation. NOW!!! I don't care to pay ALPA dues given the assertion that I may someday become a pilot for the majors, (and thus reap the benefits of ALPA's past efforts). While it may be true that all airline pilots have historically benefited from ALPA efforts and contracts, I don't see anyone asking non-ALPA major pilots to pay ALPA dues. Case in point, American's pilots are represented by the Allied Pilots Association, (not ALPA). I don't see anyone suggesting that these APA union members should pay ALPA dues in addition to their APA dues, because AA pilots may have historically benefited from ALPA's efforts.

I do see ALPA God-O-Pilots, Dwayne Woerth inviting AA pilots to put their nose into the TSA/Eagle mess, which demonstrates that ALPA's priorities are clearly out of whack.

The issue is clear: ALPA refuses to fairly and diligently represent the interest of those regional pilots with whom they have contracted to represent. If ALPA cannot fullfill their contractual and fiduciary duties to two distinct groups, they, (ALPA) should admit that a conflict exists and seek a remedy to the conflict before proceeding and representing the rights and interests of one group at the expense of the other.

 

[wafu39]

I really do understand what you guys are saying, but I don't think that a separate regional union is the answer.

I dont think it will have the power or the finances to properly take care of its members.

I know ALPA is far from perfect, but nothing ever is. I agree that every pilot should be able to fly modern equipment for a fair salary. I know when I was flying the RJ I was far from the poverty line, and even though I would have liked to have been paid alot more, I think I was paid fairly.

Having said that, I think alot of what you think of ALPA comes from which regional you are at. I was fortunate to be at a good one, if some of you are not then you have my sympathies, but you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve, so maybe some of your complaints should be directed at your MEC rather than at the union as a whole.

I hate to even mention the word scope as it is such a sensitive subject, and I understand your frustration at having limits put on you by others. But try to remember that these "others" are only trying to protect the jobs and pilots at their airline. Would it be Fairer to allow the regionals to grow at the cost of pilot jobs at the majors?

I do not pretend to have an answer to the scope issue, I am just trying to give the other side of the argument.

Maybe guaranteed flow through is the only answer-who knows.

I just want to get back to my real life!

 

[DarnNearaJet]

How about one union for the regional "lifers" who want regionals to expand at the expense of mainline jobs.

The rest of us at the regionals can remain with the union that ...

1) Lobbies Washington on our behalf with regards to rest/duty FAR's, safety, cockpit defense.

2) Protects pilots from being "pushed" by bottom-line managers to fly a/c with questionable MX through questionable WX under questionable circumstances.

3) Offers pilots an invaluable resource of medical and legal advice and representation when a Fed comes a-knocking.

4) Strives to keep the high-paying jobs that we've all dreamed of working since we were little wide-eyed boys and girls staring in awe at the airport from turning into lowest-bidder sub-contractor hired-help positions.


EMB120FO: If you think ALPA is not indirectly responsible for the working conditions at Skywest, you need an education in the lessons of the free market and competition.

What we need is more unity, not less.

 

[RJPilott]

Well who do you think negotiated all these great things, and would we have them without ALPA - ABSOLUTELY NOT!

two words, jet.... blue......

 

[Pileit]

two words, jet.... blue......

You've got that right! It's almost laughable to watch the likes of the top five or so majors as they bicker amongst themselves; labor and management pointing fingers every which way.

In the mean time, Jet Blue and a few others just keep making money and taking market share. Good for them! Maybe it will sent a wakeup call to those carriers that cling so tightly to broken business models, and to those who believe infighting is just business as usual.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA supports the mean ol' big brother cuz they simply outnumber us.

For example, Delta pilots outnumber DCI pilots by 3-1 ratio if not more. So simply put - DCI would lose by virtue of numbers.

From little that I know about J4J program, I have reservations about that.

But it's still a far cry from willingness to sue our union into bankruptcy.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hello All,
Can anyone say "COLLECTIVE BARGAINING",
some of the Skywest pilots have been trying
to get A.L.P.A. on the property without sucess,
usually missing the required votes by single digit numbers.
All of these projections are academic at best,
a large group of Skywest pilots just want the
protections of the R.L.A. given to collective bargaining groups,
a legally enforceable contract.
Where the pilot group goes after certification is anyones guess.
Ola
PBR

 

[surplus1]

As you think about this idea, think about why the SWA pilots don't join ALPA. Think about why the UPS pilots keep IPA, think about why the Horizon pilots went Teamsters. Think about why a group of Eagle pilots is trying to launch AEPA.

There are reasons. Think about them.

What is the value of political power, if it used against you?

What is the value of "lots of money", if you have to sell your soul to get it?.

What is the real value of lots of resources, if you always have to wait in line to get them?

Is your agenda compatible with your union's agenda?

There are lots of questions and lots of answers.

Think carefully.

 

[jetdriven]

I've been a loyal servant of my ALPA MEC, and watched as "my" union screwed us, Piedmont, and our W.O. partners at ALG. (PSA already had a limp contract so they don't count-although they are a good bunch of guys and equally screwed by J4J!) J4J, boy that sure was a terrific idea-I mean replacing me and my fellow pilots to give jobs to the higher paid mainline freaks-logic at it best.

can you believe it? This coming from the highest paid regional pilot group in the country! Here at MESA we realize that you guys can be furloughed for the next 3 years and would still have made more money than us if we were both hired at the same time 8 years ago! Funny thing is I agree with a lot of what you say, UMEC is bending you guys over.