A National Regional pilots Union

[Pileit]

You guys don't seem to get the big picture!

wafu39,

I understand what you're saying but need some more detail. It sounds as if you believe that in this industry there are "haves" and "have nots." And that the "have nots" should accept their fate now for the future hope of becoming one of the "haves." I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just trying to understand.

Because, my view is that pay/compensation disparity is a cancer to this industry. The "haves" get way too much and the "have nots" get way too little. Personally, I'd much rather see all pilots earn a good living than have some get rich while many others languish in poverty.

I welcome discussions of a regional union if it will stimulate thought/action on how to fix the gross pay/compensation structure that currently exists.

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
My thesis stems form the fact that airline union contracts have been traditionally based upon achieving parity. How many times have you read about pilots using the contracts at Delta, NW, etc... as the basis for a pay raise? Doesn't it sound alot like the glass ceiling that has driven professional athletes salaries (and airline CEOs for that matter) out of sight?
Typically, the pilots represent about 10-15% of the workforce of an airline, but in some case will take up to 30% of the total payroll. Just what is a reasonable salary for a professonal pilot and how does one quantify it? A very difficult question. As an enlisted crewmember my pay was far less than the officer/pilot, but was far more than a typical regional jet FO with about the same number of years in service when you factored in my various allowances, medical/dental etc...
Looking from an historical perspective the airlines were the penultimate olgilopoly(sic), and has labor didn't adjust very quickly when deregulation kicked in. Airline entrprenuers (a loose term when applied to people like Stephen Wolf, Carl Ichan and Frannk Lorenzo) knew that labor costs were going to be the difference between profitibility and bankruptcy.
Human nature being what it is. Many have found it difficult and academically impossible to give up their respective "rice bowls" to contract their compensation expectations in the so-called "new" economy because ALPA is still trying to conduct itself in the same manner that it did 20 years ago. As long as this trend continues any real change is going to be impossible.
This whole idea of a regional jet pilot union, while good intentioned from their own perspective is simply more of the same "rice bowl" mentality. I recall a similar thread where a gentleman suggested that the airline executives are silently smirking to themselves as the entire airline pilot community bickers and threatens to implode upon itself.
It would appear to me that this regional jet "thing" is going to be the way of the future. USAirways has announced a major part of it's restructuring to include a heavy order of RJs to serve more point-to-point markets with less emphasis on costly and delay vulnerable hubs.
I don't know where that is going to lead in terms of salaries, but ALPA looks like they are going to fight tooth and nail to keep the scope limits in place and hence the salary structure. I don't think that the RJ union thing is going to correct that. Of course, I'm only speculating, but it wouldn't seem that ALPA has done much to me, except increase it's own coffers.

Regards...

ex-Navy rotorhead

 

[Slick]

Quote:
"The point is that hopefully in the future you will fly for a major and reap the benefits of ALPA membership."



If I pay ALPA dues , I expect ALPA representation. NOW!!! I don't care to pay ALPA dues given the assertion that I may someday become a pilot for the majors, (and thus reap the benefits of ALPA's past efforts). While it may be true that all airline pilots have historically benefited from ALPA efforts and contracts, I don't see anyone asking non-ALPA major pilots to pay ALPA dues. Case in point, American's pilots are represented by the Allied Pilots Association, (not ALPA). I don't see anyone suggesting that these APA union members should pay ALPA dues in addition to their APA dues, because AA pilots may have historically benefited from ALPA's efforts.

I do see ALPA God-O-Pilots, Dwayne Woerth inviting AA pilots to put their nose into the TSA/Eagle mess, which demonstrates that ALPA's priorities are clearly out of whack.

The issue is clear: ALPA refuses to fairly and diligently represent the interest of those regional pilots with whom they have contracted to represent. If ALPA cannot fullfill their contractual and fiduciary duties to two distinct groups, they, (ALPA) should admit that a conflict exists and seek a remedy to the conflict before proceeding and representing the rights and interests of one group at the expense of the other.

 

[wafu39]

I really do understand what you guys are saying, but I don't think that a separate regional union is the answer.

I dont think it will have the power or the finances to properly take care of its members.

I know ALPA is far from perfect, but nothing ever is. I agree that every pilot should be able to fly modern equipment for a fair salary. I know when I was flying the RJ I was far from the poverty line, and even though I would have liked to have been paid alot more, I think I was paid fairly.

Having said that, I think alot of what you think of ALPA comes from which regional you are at. I was fortunate to be at a good one, if some of you are not then you have my sympathies, but you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve, so maybe some of your complaints should be directed at your MEC rather than at the union as a whole.

I hate to even mention the word scope as it is such a sensitive subject, and I understand your frustration at having limits put on you by others. But try to remember that these "others" are only trying to protect the jobs and pilots at their airline. Would it be Fairer to allow the regionals to grow at the cost of pilot jobs at the majors?

I do not pretend to have an answer to the scope issue, I am just trying to give the other side of the argument.

Maybe guaranteed flow through is the only answer-who knows.

I just want to get back to my real life!

 

[DarnNearaJet]

How about one union for the regional "lifers" who want regionals to expand at the expense of mainline jobs.

The rest of us at the regionals can remain with the union that ...

1) Lobbies Washington on our behalf with regards to rest/duty FAR's, safety, cockpit defense.

2) Protects pilots from being "pushed" by bottom-line managers to fly a/c with questionable MX through questionable WX under questionable circumstances.

3) Offers pilots an invaluable resource of medical and legal advice and representation when a Fed comes a-knocking.

4) Strives to keep the high-paying jobs that we've all dreamed of working since we were little wide-eyed boys and girls staring in awe at the airport from turning into lowest-bidder sub-contractor hired-help positions.


EMB120FO: If you think ALPA is not indirectly responsible for the working conditions at Skywest, you need an education in the lessons of the free market and competition.

What we need is more unity, not less.

 

[RJPilott]

Well who do you think negotiated all these great things, and would we have them without ALPA - ABSOLUTELY NOT!

two words, jet.... blue......

 

[Pileit]

two words, jet.... blue......

You've got that right! It's almost laughable to watch the likes of the top five or so majors as they bicker amongst themselves; labor and management pointing fingers every which way.

In the mean time, Jet Blue and a few others just keep making money and taking market share. Good for them! Maybe it will sent a wakeup call to those carriers that cling so tightly to broken business models, and to those who believe infighting is just business as usual.

 

[Freight Dog]

ALPA supports the mean ol' big brother cuz they simply outnumber us.

For example, Delta pilots outnumber DCI pilots by 3-1 ratio if not more. So simply put - DCI would lose by virtue of numbers.

From little that I know about J4J program, I have reservations about that.

But it's still a far cry from willingness to sue our union into bankruptcy.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hello All,
Can anyone say "COLLECTIVE BARGAINING",
some of the Skywest pilots have been trying
to get A.L.P.A. on the property without sucess,
usually missing the required votes by single digit numbers.
All of these projections are academic at best,
a large group of Skywest pilots just want the
protections of the R.L.A. given to collective bargaining groups,
a legally enforceable contract.
Where the pilot group goes after certification is anyones guess.
Ola
PBR

 

[surplus1]

As you think about this idea, think about why the SWA pilots don't join ALPA. Think about why the UPS pilots keep IPA, think about why the Horizon pilots went Teamsters. Think about why a group of Eagle pilots is trying to launch AEPA.

There are reasons. Think about them.

What is the value of political power, if it used against you?

What is the value of "lots of money", if you have to sell your soul to get it?.

What is the real value of lots of resources, if you always have to wait in line to get them?

Is your agenda compatible with your union's agenda?

There are lots of questions and lots of answers.

Think carefully.

 

[jetdriven]

I've been a loyal servant of my ALPA MEC, and watched as "my" union screwed us, Piedmont, and our W.O. partners at ALG. (PSA already had a limp contract so they don't count-although they are a good bunch of guys and equally screwed by J4J!) J4J, boy that sure was a terrific idea-I mean replacing me and my fellow pilots to give jobs to the higher paid mainline freaks-logic at it best.

can you believe it? This coming from the highest paid regional pilot group in the country! Here at MESA we realize that you guys can be furloughed for the next 3 years and would still have made more money than us if we were both hired at the same time 8 years ago! Funny thing is I agree with a lot of what you say, UMEC is bending you guys over.