Re: Read closely
Dubya said:
The french and the rest of Europe just can't stand the fact that America is the most powerful nation on earth...ever...and uses that power for the good of mankind...not to conquer and divide.
You were doing great until the above. There is no basis for that assumption regarding the French. The French position is not based on America being the world's most powerful nation. It is based on the reality that, because of its power, the American nation often demands that other foreign nations must agree with its policies, all of them. Soverign nations will always have differences of opinion with each other, just as the peoples within any given nation, including the United States, have differences of opinion (the split in our own country is virtually 50/50 ... the nation is divided).
We do not hesitate to point out that we will not subgugate our own soverignty to the United Nations and I agree with that. Why then do we expect France (or for that matter any other country) to subordinate its own soverignty to the United States? Are they somehow required to do that merely because we have more money and more guns?
If we expect to export "democracy" then we must also accept that in a democratic world, there will be opinions different from our own. When that happens, we can't call ourselves proponents of democracy by ingnoring the views of others and imposing our view by force. The two just don't go together.
We are here because Europe screwed up. Period. We saved Europe from disaster not once, not twice, but THREE times....and the Europeans can't stand it. They want what we have...but they haven't the moral doctrine to wield such power. We do. We are inherently good.
I think what you're doing here is atypical. You are confusing he American government with he American people. The people of America
are inherently good, but the government of America is little different from others, and this is by no means a new phenomenon. Like all other nations our government exercises its power to advance the interests of the United States. Principally its financial interests as opposed to the moral interests of its people or the philosophy of our national charter (Consitution and Bill of Rights).
Our intervention in the great wars of the 20th centruy in Europe did in fact save Europe from the domination of German tyrrany, but to say that we did that for altruistic reasons stretches the imagination of the educated. We did it in order to protect ourselves from Germany and the Soviet Union.
There is a long history of United States intervention in foreign countries, in a variety of circumstances, and I am not talking about humanitarian aid. I'm talking about intervention in the internal affairs of other countries for political or military reasons. If you are interested in that sought of thing, it doesn't take much research to verify.
Yes, we are called upon for humanitarian aid frequently and we often give generously, more often than not. We get the calls because we are not only the most powerful nation, but the richest nation. When we can give such aid it pleases me. However, when we give a dictatorial government (that we happen to support) tanks and helicopter gunships with which to operss its people, when what the "people" need is water, food and medicine, if our motives are questioned I don't find that unusual.
I have been lucky enough to travel and live extensively in many foreign countries. I feel I can honestly say that I never met anyone that "hated" the American people. In fact, much the opposite was true. However, I seldom ran across anyone that agreed with the actions of the American government. Basically, as a nation, our government does not practice what it preaches.
I agree completely that the interests of the United States should come first, but at least for me, that depends on what those interests are. I'm all for spreading democracy, I just don't think you do that by invading foreign countrys or clandestinley overthrowing their governments or assasinating political leaders that do not share our views.
As for how much debt we have "written off" it is true that it has been a great deal. When you include the French however, I think you err somewhat. Perhaps you would do better to focus on the unpaid debt of countries like the United Kingdom and India.
In the most recent scenario we have a "new friend" in Pakistan. How much money changed hands between the governments of Pakistan and the United States to "buy" that friendship? I'm not saying that we shouldn't have done that, but I am saying that "friends" that you have to buy are not friends.
In Afghanistan, where we should have gone, we are proclaiming loudly that we have routed the Taliban and installed a democratic government. The fact is that we have installed a democratic mayor of Kabul (that we call the President). The majority of the country is still in chaos, the Taliban are everywhere and resurging, the opium trade is booming. Yes, we routed a rag-tag army of terrorists, but we have done little else. Unless we plan a permanent military presence in that country the former situation will recur and when it does, the people that we have abandoned will no longer be on our side. The Bush administration has failed to follow up. This is good for the USA? I don't think so.
It is not that I think we can change that country overnight, I don't. However I also don't think that we are trying to change it at all. We don't really care what happens to Afghanistan, what we care about is the al Queda bases. Unless we do change the country, the minute we leave, they will come back.
A similar policy in Iraq will also result in a new civil war in that country and most probably the resurgence of an Islamic Republic that will not be friendly to the United States. It may make us feel good to listen to TV speeches and sound bites from Cheney and Rumsfeld telling the American people that we are the "liberators" of Iraq. That may be their view, but it is not the view of the people of Iraq. Removal of Saddam Hussein is a plus for most of them. Occupation of their country by the USA may well be seen as a greater evil, by them.
How we see ourselves is not the road to a successful foreign policy. The world already knows that Americans like Americans. The problems that we have stem from the reality that most of the world does not like the American government's policies.
If we choose to believe that doesn't matter, then we have given in to the isolationist faction. That may have been practical when North America was an island protected by vast oceans. In a world of modern technology the idea that we can hide in "fortress America" is folly in the extreme.
In my opinion, our survival as a great nation is not solely dependent on our vast military power. It is truly dependent on how this nation is seen by the rest of the world. Either we learn to live together with the rest of the planets population, without the need for military might alone, or our way of life will continue to be threatened. Survival is dependent on more than military power. The real danger is from those who believe that as long as we have this military superiority we can dictate to the rest of the world.
Great post mar....a glaring example of the hatred and jealousy that exists towards the greatest nation the world has ever known. A perfect follow to the CK speech.....it simply reinforces the greatness of CK's words.
That's an amazingly interesting perspective of the Debray piece. That you would form that opinion about a dissenting view and a different perspective pretty much confirms everything that I've said. Instead of attempting to understand and learn why other's have the view that they do, you dismiss it as "hatred and jealousy". That myopia, if embraced by our government, will not produce continued success. Unfortunately, the current administration does seem to share your views.
I believe that we must defend everything that we have and act where necessary to protect ourselves. I also believe that as long as we choose to ignore WHY we are being attacked, the attacks will continue.
The fact that we have not been attacked overtly again since 9/11 is not an indicator of Bush's successful policy. It is merely an indicator that the enemy has not chosen to make another attack serious attack as yet. The day will come when he does try again. I can only pray that we will be lucky enough to prevent it on the next go around. Meanwhile, I continue to wish that we did not have to depend so much on luck and so little on wisdom.
I enjoy the dialogue.
PS. Thank you mar, for posting the other perspective. I find it just as enlightening as the CK speech.
Edited to fix the quotes. Text unchanged.