A message from ALPA

[Superpilot92]

ALPA has unveiled a new initiative in its long fight to protect the wages and work rules of express pilots--a Fee-For-Departure Task Force.
Like their counterparts who fly for legacy carriers, ALPA pilots who fly for express carriers have regularly met and shared information during the last several years in a coordinated effort to protect their rates of pay and work rules. As capacity in the 50-seat jet market has grown to exceed demand, this group now faces a new and difficult challenge from their managements.
Much of the flying that express pilots perform is done under so-called "fee-for-departure." Under this type of agreement, a mainline carrier agrees to pay the express partner a fixed fee for each flight serving the mainline carrier. Recently, several mainline carriers have put out requests for proposals "inviting" express carriers throughout the industry to bid for the right to partner for them. The flying goes to the express carrier willing to fly for the lowest fee per departure.
To secure a piece of this shrinking pie, many express carriers, arguing that they need relief to compete for the right to partner with a legacy carrier, have sought concessions from their pilot groups. The result is a brutal race to the bottom for employees.
In light of managements' attempts to whipsaw one pilot group against another, leaders from several express carrier pilot groups recently concluded that ALPA needed to devise specific strategies to vigorously resist these pressures. In response, ALPA's president, Capt. Duane Woerth, last week formed a "Fee-For-Departure Task Force" and charged it to develop recommendations for an effective strategy to resist unreasonable demands for concessions and to maintain minimum standards for rates of pay among express carrier pilot groups.

The members of the Fee-For-Departure Task Force are

• Capt. John Mondus (Air Wisconsin), Negotiating Committee chairman
• First Officer Andy Nordgren (American Eagle), Negotiating Committee chairman
• Capt. Cory Tennen (Comair), Negotiating Committee chairman
• Capt. Neal Schwartz (Express Jet), Negotiating Committee chairman
• Capt. Mark Nagel (Mesaba), Negotiating Committee member

"The same disruptive demand for concessions that occurred to Air Wisconsin, Atlantic Coast, and Mesa after United entered into bankruptcy three years ago is happening now at Delta and Northwest and their express partners," explained Capt. Woerth. "With Comair in bankruptcy with Delta, and Mesaba in bankruptcy because of Northwest, the pressure is rising."
"Pinnacle and Atlantic Southeast are directly affected, but Continental has threatened Express Jet, and American Eagle management won't sit back as the feeding frenzy begins," Capt. Woerth continued. "Every pilot--express and mainline pilots alike--has a stake in this fight. If we pull together and refuse to be pitted against each other, as management is attempting to do, we will succeed in protecting the pay and work rules that our profession deserves."

What are the chances of mainline and regionals working together to stop this ploy from mgmt to ruin our jobs???

 

[Doug Parker]

.



Notice that there are no MessUp Pilots on the Task Force.....................

I guess they want people that will stand up, not roll over like a little b!tch and spread their azz cheeks so they can take the flying from others.





.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

When they had the chance to save this profession they blew it. Sorry ALPA, 5 years too late.

 

[Bluestreaker]

kiss my a$$ ALPO

 

[ex j-41]

Alpo

I still don't understand how you can be a defendant and a prosecutor at
the same time!
How can ALPA represent both regional and mainline pilots without this being
a conflict of interest? They sold out the Regional airlines and now they feel
bad about it?

 

[pianoman]

Simple. ALPA trying to shore up "feeder" airline pay has two positive outcomes:

1. It protects and/or enhances the quality of life for us slaving away flying shiny jets and props.

2. It stems the tide of jobs being siphoned off from the majors to the cheaper workforce of the regionals.

Can't we all just pick a piece of turf, pee on it, and stay in our corners?

 

[Capi_Cafre']

"Every pilot--express and mainline pilots alike--has a stake in this fight. If we pull together and refuse to be pitted against each other, as management is attempting to do, we will succeed in protecting the pay and work rules that our profession deserves."

That's almost too funny for Woerds.............

When they had the chance to save this profession they blew it. Sorry ALPA, 5 years too late.

I'll see your five and raise you ten. The first small jet airframes rolled out the door in 1991.

Is this like the outfielder standing there staring into the sky while the baseball lays on the ground 3 feet to the side of him?

I think it's a little closer to Peyton Manning dogging the O-line that kept his slow ass in one piece all year by saying "I'm trying to be a good teammate here" after he choked up a king-sized furball vs. the Steelers. Or OJ looking for the real killers. Or something.

 

[RCA]

Well Im fn speechless. Were are all the Mesa supporters. You know the guys that saved the Industry by voting for this contract and stopping freedom. Really guys how much worse was the pay and work rules at freedom than what you quys sighned.

 

[DiverDriver]

Is this like the outfielder standing there staring into the sky while the baseball lays on the ground 3 feet to the side of him?

 

[regionaltard]

Well Im fn speechless. Were are all the Mesa supporters. You know the guys that saved the Industry by voting for this contract and stopping freedom. Really guys how much worse was the pay and work rules at freedom than what you quys sighned.

Sorry, the "Cretins bashing Comair" thread is over there somewhere.......

 

[loverobot]

So what exactly is the task force trying to stop? It appears that the pilot compensation market at the regional level is paying exactly what the market will bare.

Its a balance between paying too little that nobody stays, and paying too much that you can't compete with the next company.

18k a year for an airline pilot seems to be about as low as it could get without running out of applicants, or having an insane attrition rate that would cost even more in training costs.

55k a year for a Capt with 8 days off per month is equally disturbing.

Just how low could the pay naturally go without the "assistance" of ALPA's task force? I propose that this balance has already arrived.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well $hit....I guess we ought to throw in the towel then.

-Neal

 

[loverobot]

Well $hit....I guess we ought to throw in the towel then.

-Neal

Woerth, in his letter, uses ACA's negotiations with UAL during the bankruptcy. I was there, I got the t-shirt. I've seen the future of the regionals, and its UGLY!

I'm glad that this issue is finally making its way to the front of the pack. Use history as your guide, its bound to repeat without some serious preparation.

Its time to get familliar with "The Bain Group". They come to speak with your management on behalf of the major you "really" work for. The Bain Group is an airline consulting firm that re-negotiates regional contracts during bankruptcy. Falling Prices!! Thats what they do best. Get ready, there coming.

 

[dojetdriver]

Woerth, in his letter, uses ACA's negotiations with UAL during the bankruptcy. I was there, I got the t-shirt. I've seen the future of the regionals, and its UGLY!

I'm glad that this issue is finally making its way to the front of the pack. Use history as your guide, its bound to repeat without some serious preparation.

Its time to get familliar with "The Bain Group". They come to speak with your management on behalf of the major you "really" work for. The Bain Group is an airline consulting firm that re-negotiates regional contracts during bankruptcy. Falling Prices!! Thats what they do best. Get ready, there coming.

I've got the t-shirt also. That was such an ugly process to watch. And now that I'm at ExpressJet, I'm watching the whole process start again. Alot of guys here had their head in the sand thinking that it would never happen here. They said that XJet provides too good of product for CAL and that CAL would never do that to XJet. Like CAL owed them something. Guess what? The bean counters don't care about quality. All they care about is how cheaply it can be done.

And yes, this crap started happening AT LEAST 3 years ago, if not before then. It's funny how long it takles ALPA to figure some stuff out sometines. My first flight instructor flew for USAir Express back in the mid 90's. USAir did the same crap to their express carriers back then. Play them off against one another all to keep the cost down. Guess who has to take it in the shorts just to keep the flying? Labor, that means pilots included.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Its time to get familliar with "The Bain Group". They come to speak with your management on behalf of the major you "really" work for. The Bain Group is an airline consulting firm that re-negotiates regional contracts during bankruptcy. Falling Prices!! Thats what they do best. Get ready, there coming.

I'm pretty familiar with Bain. You are correct in what they did for UAL a few years ago. However, for accuracy, they are not an "airline" consulting firm. They are a global management consulting/strategy consulting firm and this was the first (and only) airline deal they had done in a long time (at least one of this magnitude where they worked on behalf of the network carrier to whittle down the regionals' marketing agreements). They are not being used in any other situation right now (to the best of my knowledge) and I honestly don't see them being used again frankly.

-Neal

 

[J32driver]

What a joke. I was actually disgusted reading the Fastread when it came out. The express guys have been on the rooftops SCREAMING for help from ALPA for the last 3 YEARS! 3 FREAKIN YEARS! And now you come up with a focus group. Great. Glad to see they are on top of things.

I'm simply disgusted that it took this long for ALPA to even acknowledge the regional pukes needed some help.

 

[WhiteCloud]

Outsourcing of pilot services is the problem. First it was ok to outsource small turbo props, the 19 seaters, then jets, then 50 seats, 70 seats, 90 seats and so on. Will it be domestic flying next? It's certainly headed that way. Lots of former mainline routes are now being flown by "regionals" and "feeders". This is way late in the game to try to come up with a solution. About 25 years too late.

 

[loverobot]

Outsourcing of pilot services is the problem. First it was ok to outsource small turbo props, the 19 seaters, then jets, then 50 seats, 70 seats, 90 seats and so on. Will it be domestic flying next? It's certainly headed that way. Lots of former mainline routes are now being flown by "regionals" and "feeders". This is way late in the game to try to come up with a solution. About 25 years too late.

Precisley why Woerth says that even the Pilots at Major Airlines have a dog in the fight. "There coming to get you," he might as well said.

E190's baby! Nearly the size of 737 or A319, Captains make 60k and FO's make 25k, they work for a contract airline flying hub to hub, soon coast to coast. There coming, oh yes, there coming. All those peach fuzzed kids in the disshelved pilot outfits you see around the concourse? There coming to get your job. Armys of kids, 25 year old Captains, 21 year old FO's. They work for half the pay, for cut throat operators.

 

[loverobot]

I'm pretty familiar with Bain. You are correct in what they did for UAL a few years ago. However, for accuracy, they are not an "airline" consulting firm. They are a global management consulting/strategy consulting firm and this was the first (and only) airline deal they had done in a long time (at least one of this magnitude where they worked on behalf of the network carrier to whittle down the regionals' marketing agreements). They are not being used in any other situation right now (to the best of my knowledge) and I honestly don't see them being used again frankly.

-Neal

Fair enough. Maybe the names will change, but the faces stay the same.

Be familliar with the process then. Its coming, the companies have gathered their arms, ALPA appears to be hearing the war drums.

Good luck.

 

[RampTower]

The only way to get fair representation is for "express carriers" to break away from ALPA and form a new union. And to be treated like any other airline pilot in the nation, or world for that matter, is drop the term "express". As long as we're labeled express (i.e. commuter, puddle jumpers, rubberband, etc), in the eyes of ALPA and the general public, we will always be paid as such. We can sit here on flightinfo.com and bitch and moan or actually do something about it. Make history, don't be part of history.

 

[TCAS]

I'm pretty familiar with Bain ...and I honestly don't see them being used again frankly.

If it's not Bain then it's Ford & Harrison. Michael Campbell's return to Ford Harrison over a year ago should be of interest in the days ahead for the XpressJet pilots.

http://www.fordharrison.com/fh/news/press_releases/20041018mike_campbell.asp

 

[Capn Lucky]

I'd be very interested to know how this group will address the concerns of non-subsdiary airlines such as TSA and Mesa. It seems that the composition of the group is lacking representaion of these groups.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I'd be very interested to know how this group will address the concerns of non-subsdiary airlines such as TSA and Mesa. It seems that the composition of the group is lacking representaion of these groups.

This first group is just a start...and will get the ball rolling. I imagine the other small jet carriers will be involved downstream, and perhaps even some non-ALPA carriers in the form of a "coalition." Who knows at this point and time will tell. But if some of the negative folks on here really think it is too late, then maybe I should quit...

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

If it's not Bain then it's Ford & Harrison. Michael Campbell's return to Ford Harrison over a year ago should be of interest in the days ahead for the XpressJet pilots.

http://www.fordharrison.com/fh/news/press_releases/20041018mike_campbell.asp

Bain and F&H are entirely different entities.

Bain is a management consulting firm that works with executives on their overall strategy and corporate goals, etc.

F&H is a labor relations law firm. Believe it or not, most of their work is in the general employment law (USERRA, sexual harassment, discrimination, terminations, etc) area and not in airline contract negotiations. They have a few attorneys who specialize in airline labor negotiations such as Mike Campbell and Claude Sullivan. The XJT MEC, NC, and its ALPA contract administrators have extensive experience with Mr. Sullivan and some experience with Mr. Campbell as well (back when we were one MEC). Both are very experienced attorneys/negotiators obviously.

-Neal

 

[Green]

Precisley why Woerth says that even the Pilots at Major Airlines have a dog in the fight. "There coming to get you," he might as well said.

E190's baby! Nearly the size of 737 or A319, Captains make 60k and FO's make 25k, they work for a contract airline flying hub to hub, soon coast to coast. There coming, oh yes, there coming. All those peach fuzzed kids in the disshelved pilot outfits you see around the concourse? There coming to get your job. Armys of kids, 25 year old Captains, 21 year old FO's. They work for half the pay, for cut throat operators.

E-190's are all at mainline correct? At US Airways any future 190 orders will be flown by mainline pilots on our certificate. The same is true of JetBlue. Not sure about AirCanada.

 

[ex j-41]

The only way to get fair representation is for "express carriers" to break away from ALPA and form a new union. And to be treated like any other airline pilot in the nation, or world for that matter, is drop the term "express". As long as we're labeled express (i.e. commuter, puddle jumpers, rubberband, etc), in the eyes of ALPA and the general public, we will always be paid as such.

"Express" name is the problem?

Call me whatever the you want. The name has nothing to do with anything.
Regional, express, feeder, shuttle, commuter whatever....don't waste time and money dickering about what we are called. We fly airplanes, 33 million dollar airplanes. We spend 200 days a year in a crappy hotel. The pay should match the position. Regardless of what it is called.

 

[loverobot]

E-190's are all at mainline correct? At US Airways any future 190 orders will be flown by mainline pilots on our certificate. The same is true of JetBlue. Not sure about AirCanada.

Sorry, I was just waxing a story about the future.

I think its Shuttle America (CHQ) that runs the 170's, and the 190 is the stretch version, isnt it?

 

[loverobot]

Bain and F&H are entirely different entities.

Bain is a management consulting firm that works with executives on their overall strategy and corporate goals, etc.

F&H is a labor relations law firm. Believe it or not, most of their work is in the general employment law (USERRA, sexual harassment, discrimination, terminations, etc) area and not in airline contract negotiations. They have a few attorneys who specialize in airline labor negotiations such as Mike Campbell and Claude Sullivan. The XJT MEC, NC, and its ALPA contract administrators have extensive experience with Mr. Sullivan and some experience with Mr. Campbell as well (back when we were one MEC). Both are very experienced attorneys/negotiators obviously.

-Neal

Ford and Harrison is the hired Union Busting law firm hired by Flight Options in recent weeks. F&H was brought on to kill the Teamsters Union drive at Flight Options.

For those not in the Fractional world: NetJets is currently the only unionized fractional operator, they are represented by the Teamsters Airline Division. The Teamsters Local 1108 to be more specific. Flight Options Pilots are currently working under a draconian management team. The FO Pilots are at this moment casting their votes to possibly vote in Union representation to their craft. Ford and Harrison are the hired legal counsel representing management-- their tactics are clearly visable and interpreted as a "union busting" enterprise.

F&H specializes in aviation matters, and has a particular grudge for Pilots.

 

[twinbeech]

Pretty sure its Mesa and the like that flushed the toilet that we are all currently swirling towards the drain of. I am not bashing the pilot group. All the Mesa guys I have ever run across have been absolutely wonderful. However, your willingness to continue to come to and work for a company that leads the race to the bottom is not so great. That opened the door for the G.o.jet croud to come in and take jobs from ACA, AWAC (TSA obviously) and now, even Mesa. Now that the company is starting to see the product of it's stupidity, it wants on the advisory group as well. Kinda counterproductive if you ask me.

 

[TCAS]

Bain and F&H are entirely different entities.

Bain is a management consulting firm that works with executives on their overall strategy and corporate goals, etc.

F&H is a labor relations law firm. Believe it or not, most of their work is in the general employment law (USERRA, sexual harassment, discrimination, terminations, etc) area and not in airline contract negotiations. They have a few attorneys who specialize in airline labor negotiations such as Mike Campbell and Claude Sullivan. The XJT MEC, NC, and its ALPA contract administrators have extensive experience with Mr. Sullivan and some experience with Mr. Campbell as well (back when we were one MEC). Both are very experienced attorneys/negotiators obviously.

-Neal

Neal,

If you're on the XJT NC you better take the time to learn a little more about F&H then you currently know. They are the Spawn of Satan to regional airline pilots when it comes to contract negotiations. There are plenty of regional airline MEC NC's who've sat and watched F&H lawyers whisper into the ears of company negotiators at the bargaining table.