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A good piston twin...

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Nikes

LT
Joined
Oct 1, 2002
Posts
41
I am doing a study for a class and I need some help. What is a good twin to operate as far as operating cost, reliability, passenger comfort, performance and any other major factors? I have divided some of the aircraft I have been studying into the fallowing categories,

Pressurized Twin Pistons
Beech 60 Duke
Cessna 441
Cessna 421
Cessna 414

Twin Piston(s) (Non-pressurized/Non Turbo)
Beech 58 Baron

(Any other good plane you can think of)

The baron is still being produced and I figured that the maintenance cost would be cheaper because it is still in production. However as far as long range trips you are stuck below 14,000 feet if you don’t want your pax wearing cumbersome oxygen mask. Turboprops also crossed my mind, how ever the initial acquisition cost is quite high. Any productive comments would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Nikes
 
you didnt point out what it would be used for; personal, charter, rental, etc.

but...from a pilots standpoint, id go with the baron everytime.

all the dukes ive known were hanger queens for one reason or another. and of the 400 series that i flew, they all handled like old wonder bread trucks. a plane that comes to mind is the navajo, but i havent the pleasure of gracing its cockpit thus far.

but then devils advocate suggests that you may not be able to have your cake and eat it too. you want low op cost, high performance, pax comfort, and reliability? id say go T-prop, but thats not the topic now, is it?

...perhaps a nice Duchess is right up your alley :p
 
A few things to keep in mind:

Though the Baron is still being produced this isn't a very important factor in determining support costs. If Beech ceased production tomorrow there would still be several thousand models actively flying, therefore, Beech would continue to make a killing making replacement parts. As would all of the third party vendors who make the widgets & gadgets that make the "clock tick."

Here's the big picture according to me:

When an organization sets out to purchase an aircraft, at least those who do it in a wise manner, they usually lay out a list of what is important vs. what isn't. A sort of broad based "what we need, what we want, what is important, and what we could care less about" list. This will usually lead to determining the mission capability that they are willing to pay for and a cost vs. benefit analysis.

Every organization could benefit from the use of a brand new Gulfstream V but only a select few can justify the costs associated with the benefit of such a mission capable machine. Conversely, Coca-Cola or 3M (both operate the V) aren't going to waste their time buying a used Baron to handle trips shorter than 200 miles involving fewer than 4 passengers. This isn't a cost consideration as much as it is a convenience and efficiency issue for them because of the size of their operation.

If a company defines their need as a way to transport 4 people on a trip that averages 200-350 miles with all-weather capability being a "want", then something like a Baron would be a good choice. If, however, they determine a need to be able to tackle about any flying condition conceivable (terrain, icing, T-storms, etc) because of a pressing issue then they are probably going to need to step up to a turbine aircraft. Should they determine that a typical mission includes 500+ miles and up to 6 passengers with the ability to return the same day then a light jet or higher end turbo-prop may be justified. Lastly, if the owner of a growing business can tough out a Baron for 5 hours in a day and the flying doesn't involve crossing the continental divide then he/she can accomplish a lot on a smaller budget than those who want/need a beefier airplane.

The same set of rules play out for comparing individual models within the same capability and price range. Out of ten people with the same set of needs a few are going to go with a twin Cessna a few with the Baron, and one or two will go for something that the others didn't think of. When things get this specific you would be amazed at what becomes important (looks, availability, urban legends, etc...)

Having flown about everything you mentioned I'd probably end up in a late model 421 if I intended to take it across the country now and then. If I just want to hop around the state and not worry about finicky engines and pressuriztion maintenance than you would most likely find me in the Baron, the newer the better.

I hope I didn't bore you or distract you from the original question, maybe I had too much coffee a while go;-)
 
Cessna 320 Skyknight. Preferably with the TSIO 520's or the IO 550 Colemill conversion.
 
How about any Navajo for that matter. The Chieftain can haul up to 7368 lbs. with the right mods. Plus, there are a ton of them still flying.

SK:cool:
 
Or yeah, the Navajo Chieftain if you don't mind not being pressurized. I flew them for 800 hours hauling freight and I really love the airplane. It seats 8-9 passengers, flies at 195-241 knots true airspeed, ceiling is 24,000 feet, and has 350 hp per side. You just have to watch it on descent and make sure you stage cool the engines due to the turbochargers. It's the best performing piston airplane I've ever flown. Link
 
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I heard Seminole's are good. If it is a school project, why not just jump straight to the good stuff... Falcons, Gulfstreams and Challengers. Sort out which works best based on cabin size, range and performance.

Then Alex can help you figure out which one looks prettiest on the ramp.
 
SkyWestCRJPilot said:
Or yeah, the Navajo Chieftain if you don't mind not being pressurized. .... flies at 195-241 knots true airspeed, ....
What mods or miracle claims it will do 241?
 
cvsfly said:
What mods or miracle claims it will do 241?

I once saw a C-402 ad by Cessna in late 70s or early 80s, that claimed 240 knots true.
 
For the project I have to find a cost effective way to serve local metro area charter, For example New York, or Miami. The scenario also entails that there may be trips up state and flights in inclement weather. My guess was a non turbo non pressurized aircraft would be more cost effective, however the pilots are limited to their options as far as weather avoidance. I guess if I had to pick right now i would go with a 2000-2001 Baron then again I here to see if im missing any other options. I guess if the pilots had to go high they could in a baron, how well does it climb up to the flight levels?

Thanks,
Nikes
 
a baron (like most any other non-turbo charged recip engine) will start losing manifold pressure at a fairly rapid pace over 10,000 feet. heck, a hot texas day and i recall losing significant MP climbing thru 6,000 :(
 
Oxymoron

A good twin engine piston is a contradiction in terms. There are better than other piston twins, none I would consider good. In a max gross take off in most of these airplanes, having flown the turbo Navajo, I don't think anyone short of Chuck Yeager could rescue one of these on a 100 degree day with a failure right after rotate. Look at the Turbo Commander, it is an awesome performing twin. In approx 1000 hrs of piston twin time, S-2, C-1, DC-3, C-46 I have had three engine failures, resulting in single engine landings, in over 8000 hr of multi turbine flying I have had one in failure that resulted in a three engine landing.
 
cvsfly said:
What mods or miracle claims it will do 241?

I'm not so sure about the 241 KTAS, however, I can say from personal experience I have routinely overtaken Cessna 402's and 404's. Also, 250+ Knots over the ground wasn't too uncommon.
SK:cool:
 
The B58 Baron is an excellent airplane. I was flying a 1994 B58 with IO550 n/a and we figured operating cost of the airplane was $170 an hour.

The Duke however would be a different story. Don't know operating cost of the duke but i know it spends most the time in the mant. hangar.

Twin cessnas are more roomy for pax comfort then a baron, but on a performance level, id take a Baron any day of the week. Plus most twin cessnas have higher operating costs.

Flew an old PA31-325TC navajo back in the day. Quite expensive to operate, about $350 an hour at 180kts but spent alot of time down due to mag/alt/turbo problems. The baron never really had too many issues yet figured an average TAS of about 195KTS.
 
skyking1976 said:
I'm not so sure about the 241 KTAS, however, I can say from personal experience I have routinely overtaken Cessna 402's and 404's.

yes, but 402's arent exactly known for their blistering speed. they cant do 241 without one heck of a tailwind ;)
 
The 241 kt figure I got from the data section of airliners.net. In my personal experience I would routinely see 215 knots at about 75% power at FL180. The Chieftain is definitely not cheap to operate but my company had a small fleet of them which woud help offset maintenance and parts inventory costs. Regarding single engine performance, I myself lost a turbocharger on one and I had to come down to 14,000 feet to maintain altitude. That was in the winter in Colorado at 500 lbs less than max gross. It seemed to do just fine. Those that don't like the single-engine performance of the PA31 are those that flew them in the Grand Canyon with 10 people on board, at max gross weight, in 110 F. Not many piston twins will fly on one engine in those conditions, but I think the Chieftain does very well in standard conditions, at sea level at gross.
 
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What about a BE-58P pressurized baron?
 
Lrjtcaptain said:
The B58 Baron is an excellent airplane. I was flying a 1994 B58 with IO550 n/a and we figured operating cost of the airplane was $170 an hour.

The Duke however would be a different story. Don't know operating cost of the duke but i know it spends most the time in the mant. hangar.

Twin cessnas are more roomy for pax comfort then a baron, but on a performance level, id take a Baron any day of the week. Plus most twin cessnas have higher operating costs.

Flew an old PA31-325TC navajo back in the day. Quite expensive to operate, about $350 an hour at 180kts but spent alot of time down due to mag/alt/turbo problems. The baron never really had too many issues yet figured an average TAS of about 195KTS.
This sounds fairly accurate. Other comments about passing other planes or having a ground speed of 250 kts has no bearing on the true performance of a plane. There are a couple of days I could have had a C-182 doing 200 kts over the ground. Meaningless. P Baron = $$$ maintenance, so I've heard. Duke = $$$$$$$$ maintenance and big gas and runway guzzler. What is the premise of the paper? Are you looking for certain price ranges to start? Are you trying to define a client/customer for this study? Payload considerations?
I can believe a Chieftan doing 215 at 18,000, but how many operators do that? Were you flying freight with no pax and using a cannula or mask? Finding the "perfect" twin or any aircraft for that matter is going to be a compromise and fairly subjective in the end. Define the mission - speed, range, payload, performance, cabin class, purchase cost, maintenance cost, insurance cost, etc. Many airplanes to choose from. Hope they find a viable solution to the pending AVgas shortage in the future. Try some of the site that provide aircraft comparisons - AOPA, planequest, chiefpilot, Conklin & de Dekker, etc. (Some info is free - others not) Good luck.
 
If you were doing this for real I would steer you away from any piston aircraft and push the King Air or Citation, but since this is a learning exercise and you have no choice but to select a piston aircraft here is my .02$:

In metropolitan area you are competing with other charter operators that have turbine equipment, so you need to have an hourly operating cost that is low in order to compete against the boys that are offering $1,000/hour or more for turbine equipment.

Additionally, you need to have the seats and the cabin space to be able to offer a somewhat comparable product.

Speed is not important as long as you do not go over 250 nm more than 25% of the time.

Reliability is very important as well.

The Baron 58 is too small to be competative although it really is a great airplane, the Cessna 421C is too expensive to operate (Similar costs to King Air 90). I would suggest that you look at the following aircraft:

A. Navajo Chieftan (Long Body) Still some low time aircraft around.

B. Cessna 402C with an executive interior (very rare). Most still around are flown by Cape Air.

Although both are turbocharged, they do not have the big geared engines that are very expensive (over 30K) to overhaul.

Also, Piper made a non-turbocharged version of the Navajo in 1968/1969. It was a real dog, but was super cheap to operate for that kind of cabin size. Most of those have some real serious airframe time on them now and spent a good deal of there life in Canada. I saw one with 5700 TT not to long ago. Many have over 13,000 TT now.

You could also consider a Shrike Commander, but they are not approved for K-Ice, and the cabin is a bit smaller than the Navajo or 402C. Great plane to fly though.

Have fun! BTW - You might get an A on your project by just telling your professor that you are not going to participate since bankruptcy is the most likely final result to this exercise!
 
Here it is quick and clean....

"What is the premise of the paper?"

-Just to see if it can be done

"Are you looking for certain price ranges to start?"

-Yes we are trying to beat the turbo prop and jet guys ... on the short range flights.

"Are you trying to define a client/customer for this study?"

-Mid and small size business people who need to travel locally, often, and efficiently but who can not justify using expensive private charter jets/turboprops

"Payload considerations?"

-Two pilots four passengers

Thanks once again for the help
Nikes
 
I've flown all the twins you mentioned in your first post. My vote from the pilots perspective is the Navajo Cheiftain hands down! After freight-doggin over 1000 hours in them I'm probably biased though. Some good points are its high payload capability, turbo-charged, large boxy cabin, counter-rotating props, great icing performance, and single engine ops. However, watch out if you get aft on the C.G., it gets a bit squirly.
 
I can believe a Chieftan doing 215 at 18,000, but how many operators do that? Were you flying freight with no pax and using a cannula or mask?

I was flying checks and US Priority/Express Mail with no pax. I used a cannula up to and including FL180. Above I'd use a mask but that was more of a pain so I'd rarely go up higher. Cannulas are uncomfortable but you get used to them. A passenger would most likely use a mask instead which might not be that enjoyable for him. But none of that wouldn't be needed if the flights were conducted at lower altitudes. You'd lose a few knots of TAS but not too much.
 
I know it's a turbine, but when all is said and done, you guys would all opt for a Pilatus PC-12 over all of the aforementioned twins!! Right?
 
I'd take a Caravan over most of those twins and PC 12 over the Caravan. In fact, a PC 12 would probably fit my particular freight run better, but I'll never see it. Maybe there will be an ATR 42 under the Christmas tree in 07...but I'm not holding my breath.
 
A single engine plane is nice but i dont know what passngers would think about it... If i was to "go" for a single it would be a PC-12 no contest. Do you think people would charter a PC-12?

Nikes
 
I've flown a C-421, C-414, C402, C-340 and a PA-31.

For short metro hops(in my opinion) the C-421 is too finnicky with the geared engines. Darn expensive airplane for the size to operate.

Love the 414. Service ceiling somewhere around 27kish. Can't remember. 220kts.

C402. 185kts--ish. No suprisees with this airplane. It's gotta be good for the regional hops a$$-uming this of course(operated by Cape Air etc)

C340. Cabin to small for pax ops. Quik little thing though.

PA-31. I thought was a led sled on climb out, but fantastic in cruise. Awsome cabin room for pax. Another airplane thats a no-brainer to operate.

My .02

FD75:cool:
 
The PC-12 is approved for Part 135, is it not? I think it is.

I tend to think people (or businesses) would vote according to their budget. I don't know if the PC-12 cost any less to operate than the above mentioned twins. Surely it's cheaper to run than any King Air.

Good question though. Sort of like when the 767-777 started to fly over the Atlantic and Pacific. Would the paying public feel safe in a twin as opposed to the 747 was the question that was asked. Who was the old pilot that said when asked why he liked flying the B747 only, he replied, "Because they don't make one with five engines."
 

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