A few UPT questions for those who know..

[Vandal]

**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** that sounds pretty spooky...How many people are you standing up in front of? I mean what is the average class size...

 

[Biggie]

biggie

You stand up in front of anywhere from 15-30 (or so) students and all your instructors, and that's how you start your day, almost every day! That's the only thing I didn't bust in UPT!

 

[T1bubba]

IFT

CAP10B,

A few clarifications. The current pre-UPT course is called IFT (Introduction to Flying Training). It provides for anyone without a private license to attend an approved school and essentially pays for everything necessary to get their private license. The schools must apply to the USAF and meet their criteria to get on the list of approved schools. Students are sent to the closest school since the government pays travel costs, but if their are multiple schools in the area they may have a choice.

Students who already have their private license will fly between 0-10 hours depending on when their last biennial flight review was completed.

FL510,

I've heard the debate about splitting the training tracks plenty of times. All I can say is that if you believe the T-38 syllabus did a better job preparing guys to fly heavies, you've never been an IP at Altus that had to train those guys. The T-38 is a superior training platform, but not for the crew concept and not for in-depth instrument work.

T1bubba
Former IFT officer at a UPT base

 

[FL510GV]

T-1 vs T-38?

No debate here... both are highly effective for their purpose. I was just fondly remembering how much fun the T-38 was... and sorry that everyone didn't get to experience that rush as a 90 hour pilot in a super-sonic trainer.

My best friend tells the story of his first T-38 flight. After he got the gear and flaps and was climbing out, a quiet voice from the back seat asked, "are you going to take it out of burner?" At that point they were about 1 mile past the departure end of the RWY at 450+ kts...

 

[Spur]

T-1 vs T-38

I think its a shame the AF went to the T-1, not just because the studs dont get to see 500 knots, but more because T-37 training provides an insufficient examination of a students ability to operate solo in a demanding aircraft or mission. Too much emphasis has been placed on the crew-concept in UPT, and not enough on managing multiple tasks in a very quick manner, somely the T-38 did superbly. I dont think the T-1 does a good enough job of weeding out studs that may have serious problems down the road when they get to AC or IP school in their heavy, or even worse get sent to the T-37 as a FAIP.

 

[T1bubba]

Spur,

You'll get no arguement from me that occasionally students who probably shouldn't get wings make it through, but I think that's more a function of the experience level of the IP's they fly with than anything specific to the T-1. New IP's tend to think "I'll give him a break" when a student has a bad flight, what they don't realize is that everyone else is doing the same thing. Next thing you know the guy is going to a PC or an EC but there's no documentation of any earlier problems, so no basis to start the CR process. If the IP's are doing their job the students that make it to graduation are the right ones.

The flip side of the coin is that the T-38 eliminates good pilots because they can't perform tasks that they would never have to do in a heavy/crew aircraft (i.e. fly fingertip). I've seen plenty of guys who did extremely well in T-37's or T-34's, then did well in the T-38 up until formation. Next thing you know, they're flying career is over because they couldn't hang on the wing. Of course, that's extremely important for someone who's going to fighters but pretty much irrelevent for heavy pilots.

The IP's who trained our grads in their follow-on aircraft were always happy with the product, which in the end is what it's all about...

T1bubba

 

[Vandal]

supposedly now a lot of c-130 pilots fly king air's as opposed to the t-1.

 

[T1bubba]

Vandal,

Sorry for taking your thread off on a tangent.

You're right, out of each T-37 class of about 30 students there are usually 3 or 4 slots for guaranteed C-130's. Those 3 or 4 people PCS to Corpus Christi, TX and fly the T-44 or the TC-12 with the Navy and Marine prop pilots. The Navy training is much less structered than the Air Force, which can be good or bad depending on how you learn.

Out of T-1's each class usually has one or two more C-130 slots. The reason for this is that the Navy can't train enough C-130 pilots for the needs of the Air Force.

The guard still sends all their Herc pilots through T-1's, at least as of last fall when I left. I don't remember whether the USAFR herc pilots still fly T-1's...

BTW, the number of slots changes from class to class based on the needs of the Air Force, that may also have changed some since I left.

Let me know if you have any more questions...

T1bubba

 

[RichO]

UPT...etc

Vandal,

The Reserves, as far as I know are pretty much sending the pilots to Corpus. I went through UPT a couple of years ago and went through T-44's. The program down there is pretty good, they have a "god" box on the IP side where they can kill your instruments which gives you some great experience. Also, you actually do shut one of the engines down and practice single engine stuff.......and probably the best thing, the solo.......unlike mother duck and her chicks in the airforce flying a solo x-c....you show up, plan a flight with another student, tell the SOF(I forget what the navy called the guy on watch) where your going....he says, "cool have fun.....see you tonight...." At this point you walk out to your plane and off you go , just you and another student....pretty cool......

Oh, as for the check ride nerves, they are there and you do do stupid stuff....like blasting through your level off altitude on your mid-phase (the most busted checkride the -37).....but, for a guard/reserve guy, the previous post concerning overall nerves is right on. You aren't too concerned about being #1 so you can get that -15...you already know what your going to fly.....so you can actually do real well to the point where they try to recruit you into the active duty with a -38 slot from -37's...of course you might end up a FAIP, or you might fly a -15 or -16.

and don't get me started on the -38 issue.....I'm still trying to get over the fact I wasn't able to fly it.....(Ok, this is where I advertise for a ride in any fighter........I see those back seats empty all the time...........)

Now that I'm off my soap box about the -38, I do have to say some stuff about the herc since that's soon to be your plane I believe.....hey, it actually is a blast to fly......it's big, ugly, and slow, but there's nothing like going through the Rockies low level......the first couple of times, you sware your going to hit a wing tip......oh, and if you have to shut an engine down, no problem you still have 3 more....oh, and at airshows you don't have to worry about having all the women hanging around...you can sit on top and watch the show...(ok, so this isn't such a good thing....lol...ok, I must admit this is where I went over to my buddies F-15 and hung out....)

One last thing, if you are indeed going 130's.....have fun in the tweet (if you get to fly it rather than the new texan)...it actually is a blast to fly.......and it will be your only jet experience......

 

[FastCargo]

UPT...

Vandal,

Just to add my two cents here...

I'm a current/qualified T-38 Instructor at Laughlin AFB as a reservist, so I can speak to the T-38 side of the house.

Most everything posted to the forum is correct except for a few things. None of the checkrides are Form 8 checkrides anymore (ie none of them go on your permanent record after UPT). Also, the syllabus is way changed! You get your final assignment (assuming you aren't Guard/Reserve) only 2 weeks prior to graduation, with all checkrides complete beforehand. The order is different now too, with Contact, Instrument/Nav, Low-Level, THEN formation (I'm just getting used to it as well...it's changed a lot in the 2 years I was instructing in ACC instead of AETC).

Having instructed guys from both T-38 and T-1 backgrounds into the T-38 again (guys going to the U-2) I'll weigh in on the T-1/T-38 debate. The T-1 only guys tended to have great crew concept/CRM, but their performance suffered when doing single seat stuff, mainly with workload. Instrument wise, I found not that much difference with either product, other than the workload stuff I mentioned before. There were exceptions of course! The very first T-1 FAIP and most of the T-37 FAIPs (T-1 grads) we hired into the U-2 did great!
For those who don't know, the T-38 has a 'hood' which can be placed inside the rear cockpit for instrument rides. Unlike 'foggles', etc, this hood covers ALL of the outside view (unless the student cheats...which is usually noticed by the IP). The T-38 was a great instrument trainer with that hood (I know, I use it myself every once in a while...it's a little humbling...). I lean toward the T-38 as far as overall product is concerned, but I will be the first to admit that I am biased!!!!

Finally, there are a few students right now that are in the T-38 but are going to C-130 reserves...seems weird to me...but that's cool! Feel free to PM if you have any questions!

FastCargo