A few things to ponder about jetblue!

[Boeingman]

AAFlyer:

Perhaps someone could offer Mr. Neeleman his own personal L-39 to fly around on the weekends.

He could fly mine.

 

[AAflyer]

Speedbird,

That was funny. I don't wish ill on anyone, really, well kinda.

AA

 

[jetblue320]

Fwiw

Just in case anybody cares, David Neeleman has/had little or nothing to do with the EMB190 payrates. I am not defending him, just stating the simple facts. He has very little to do with the day to day operations other than to be "in the loop" as to what has transpired. His outlook on his responsibility to his stockholders is sincere, but not his every waking thought. He is the first to admit that he is a "figurehead now", and the other Generals do the work.

From a pilot's perspective, it's still the best game in town as far as I am concerned and hopefully all the bad stuff regarding the "proposed" EMB190 rates will be fixed in due time.

Just in case anybody really gives a rat's azz.

C ya

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Just talked with the President of Flight Operations here. No new hire will be forced to take the 190. They will have the opportunity to choose their airframe at hiring, however, if they pick the 320 their training date (and seniority) could be significantly delayed. How about them apples??? Those initially choosing the 190 could upgrade rapidly since there will be a fence protecting them to move up to the left seat. The initial bunch of 190 guys/gals will get typed on the aircraft so as to facilitate their upgrade. Hard to believe huh? So not such a bad deal after all!!!

That sounds like hanging the carrot in front to me. You guys are smart fellas. How can you not see this for what it is. Without the whipsaw this is the same thing that Ornstein did..."We'll give you a quick upgrade but you have to be taken from behind". A very bad deal indeed.

 

[ASH]

I understand feeling company loyalty.....but you JBLU guys are taking this way too lightly. Stop trying to toss it off and minimize it so the rest of the pilot group wont loath JBLU. (MGMT that is.)

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

I understand feeling company loyalty.....but you JBLU guys are taking this way too lightly. Stop trying to toss it off and minimize it so the rest of the pilot group wont loath JBLU. (MGMT that is.)

Ash,

Dude, I don't know what you've been reading lately but I don't see too many JB pilots taking this too lightly. In fact, it's the opposite I see. Even some of the most "blue-koolaid drinking" pilots on this board have come out against this payscale. As it stands right now, there isn't much the pilots can do--individually. But if this remains (payscale), I can see a much more unified pilot group growing in the very near future.

BTW, it's not just the -190 payscale. There are other issues that have been simmering and smoldering over at JB. PTO, benefits, MIL policies, training, middle management, 320 pay raise, etc that have gotten quite a few pilots talking among themselves. I think the -190 pay was the tinder that set the whole thing off--the last straw if you will......there will be changes at JB, that I'm sure of. How they change is the only thing that remains a mystery......

 

[ASH]

I have reviewed the posts, and conceed. Just mad as a hornet I guess.

 

[lowecur]

BTW, it's not just the -190 payscale. There are other issues that have been simmering and smoldering over at JB. PTO, benefits, MIL policies, training, middle management, 320 pay raise, etc that have gotten quite a few pilots talking among themselves. I think the -190 pay was the tinder that set the whole thing off--the last straw if you will......there will be changes at JB, that I'm sure of. How they change is the only thing that remains a mystery......

Heywood Jiblome (nice handle), are you trying to copy Blue Bayou?

I see you signed on the board this month, what a coincidence. I'm not part of the Jetblue family, but I find your take on this a little too extreme for a B6 pilot. My guess is you're just a disgruntled legacy furloughee that is trying to stir things up. Of course if the rest of the B6 family buys your load of crap, then you should go on the road and sell health tonic out of your horse drawn cart.

 

[MW44]

An interesting point of reference. The average Air Traffic Controller now makes more than the average pilot. Hopefully we as pilots can reverse that someday.

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

Heywood Jiblome (nice handle), are you trying to copy Blue Bayou?

I see you signed on the board this month, what a coincidence. I'm not part of the Jetblue family, but I find your take on this a little too extreme for a B6 pilot. My guess is you're just a disgruntled legacy furloughee that is trying to stir things up. Of course if the rest of the B6 family buys your load of crap, then you should go on the road and sell health tonic out of your horse drawn cart.

Lowecur.

Actually I've never flown for a legacy carrier before. And, believe it or not, I do enjoy flying for JB and think it continues to be a great company. The people I fly with on a day-to-day basis are some of the best in the industry. Having said that, it doesn't mean I can't be pi$$ed off at the company when I feel they do something wrong. Nor does it mean I can't view my displeasure when I believe things could be done better.

Believe it or not, most JB pilots do NOT blindly follow Dave and David and take what is preached as the Word. It's just, until now, they have done quite a good job of "doing what is right" for the employees. There are things internally that many JB pilots have issues with. You just don't hear about them here because this is not the place to bitc% about them---just because you as an outsider don't hear about them, doesn't mean they don't exist.

Back to my original statement--I love working here. And I want it to continue to be a great place to work and to attract the best from the outside. I think why you see so many JB pilots upset with this is that it has the potential to fragment the pilot population into 2 distinct groups which would significantly degrade the morale on our property.

There has even been a rumor that they would grandfather the 320 pay for the intial group of pilots already on the property to transfer to the -190....can you imagine that?! Not only would the new guys coming onto the property be paid a lot lower than the -320, but they could be paid a lot less than some of the other -190 guys too......

So say what you want about me, I wear my frustration and anger because I CARE about this company, not because I like to bash it....If I didn't give a shi%, I'd just keep getting my airbus pay and shut my piehole.........I think JB has a chance to be a real leader in this industry down the road and I just want to make sure we stay on the right course........

 

[blahshmah]

lowecur,

Heywood isn't the only JetBlue pilot that sees that there are a lot of issues that are being ignored, this is just the last and most blatant example of "not doing the right thing." I think, sir, you are in the minority on this one.

I still love flying for JB and I still hope we can resolve these issues without a union.

 

[lowecur]

Lowecur.

So say what you want about me, I wear my frustration and anger because I CARE about this company, not because I like to bash it....If I didn't give a shi%, I'd just keep getting my airbus pay and shut my piehole.........I think JB has a chance to be a real leader in this industry down the road and I just want to make sure we stay on the right course........

You care about the company or you care what other pilots think about the company? If you cared about the company you would trust mgt to run the company, and worry more about flying the plane.

Pilot's are the greatest Monday Morning Quarterbacks in this industry. If you truly believe Mgt is doing what's best for JetBlue, then let them manage. If you don't, then there is always the door. I read complaints from Pilot's about the stupid MBA's that got us in this mess, to Mgt is all a bunch of crooks who are in this to strip the company bare and walk away.

To my knowledge JetBlue Mgt doesn't have you in a mess, nor are they crooks. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and let them do what they are paid to do. It doesn't have to be us against them all the time. Sure they are going to make mistakes, but I can assure you in the long run this is not a mistake.........it's management with foresight.

 

[lowecur]

lowecur,

Heywood isn't the only JetBlue pilot that sees that there are a lot of issues that are being ignored, this is just the last and most blatant example of "not doing the right thing." I think, sir, you are in the minority on this one.

I still love flying for JB and I still hope we can resolve these issues without a union.

Collective Bargaining = Adversarial Relationship = Eventual Failure. Unions were fine when little children were working 90 hour workweeks, and people were physically abused by management. As an educated person, you have many opportunities in life to change your profession where people a 100 years ago did not.

My suggestion is to "think for yourself," and if you don't like it where you are.......move on to another airline or career.

 

[Heywood Jiblome]

You care about the company or you care what other pilots think about the company? If you cared about the company you would trust mgt to run the company, and worry more about flying the plane......

.

To my knowledge JetBlue Mgt doesn't have you in a mess, nor are they crooks. Give them the benefit of the doubt, and let them do what they are paid to do.

I can assure you I don't give a rat's a$$ about what other people outside of the company think about jetBlue. That doesn't translate into blind faith either. I trust them in general, but that doesn't mean that when I (and others) think they are making a mistake, that we don't call them on it.

You guys can't have it both ways. You can't tell us we're bringing down the industry and then in the same breath tell us to trust mgmt and everything they do. You underestimate the resolve of the pilots here at jetBlue. Do not confuse kindness and loyalty with weakness.

 

[lowecur]

You guys can't have it both ways. You can't tell us we're bringing down the industry and then in the same breath tell us to trust mgmt and everything they do. You underestimate the resolve of the pilots here at jetBlue. Do not confuse kindness and loyalty with weakness.

Many pilots are naturally "in your face" personalities. They love a challenge and are usually up to the task to meet it. This is and will always be a difficult relationship for any mgt team to deal with.

Do I think the Jetblue pilots group will eventually unionize?.......well if history is any teacher.....yes. It will also mean that mgt has earned a degree of distrust..... and the honeymoon is over.

I will challenge you to watch a situation very closely in the next few years. WN will need to either adjust their rates down 33%, or buy the 190. Either way, it will pit a wonderful mgt team against an equally wonderful pilot group. My feeling is that SWAPA will drive a wedge between mgt and the pilots. I hope I'm wrong, but listening to this board has made me a very jaded person.

 

[Draginass]

Just in case anybody cares, David Neeleman has/had little or nothing to do with the EMB190 payrates.
C ya

Oh . . . . that's really really good. LMFAO.

 

[jtf]

I don't know what the 5 year contract that Jetblue pilots sign looks like, but I'm curious if it has any pay protections built in- like if the company decided they wanted to adjust the pay scales down on the 320s, would the current pilots be affected or only people new on property after the rates went down? I'm not saying I think lower rates will come, but I wonder if they could.

 

[TonyC]

As you well know, the pilots at jetblue was not asked for input on these rates, they were handed down from the company.

..., having been here for a while, I have time and time again, seen the company do the right thing. I think they might just do that again.

Just in case anybody cares, David Neeleman has/had little or nothing to do with the EMB190 payrates. I am not defending him, just stating the simple facts. He has very little to do with the day to day operations other than to be "in the loop" as to what has transpired. His outlook on his responsibility to his stockholders is sincere, but not his every waking thought. He is the first to admit that he is a "figurehead now", and the other Generals do the work.

So, who IS in charge, and who IS responsible for the miserable EMB-190 rates?

When it was duty time limits, it was "WE want to get an exception to the FAR so we can enjoy our time off at home, and it won't affect anybody else." Management wasn't pushing it, it was pilots. And it was one big happy family, a team, focused on growing an airline. Management wasn't trying to SQUEEZE more productivity OUT of you, you were TRYING to give it to management.

Now all of a sudden, you can't seem to put a finger on who's responsible for this debacle. Well, it's that same culture you've been praising all along, the Company team that you're a part of. As part of that team, and as an avid cheerleader of that team, you share responsibility for the bad along with the good. Why SHOULDN'T management try to SQUEEZE more productivity OUT of you, since it already knows you WANT to give it?

Who's responsible for the pay rates?!?!? Look in the mirror.

 

[TonyC]

I don't know what the 5 year contract that Jetblue pilots sign looks like, but I'm curious if it has any pay protections built in- like if the company decided they wanted to adjust the pay scales down on the 320s, would the current pilots be affected or only people new on property after the rates went down? I'm not saying I think lower rates will come, but I wonder if they could.

I have a copy of one, and I briefly reviewed it to confirm my initial answer to your question. (Mind you, it might be different than what they're signing now - - mine's dated September 15, 1999.) Yes, there are pay protections built in. No, the Company could not decide to adjust the pay scales down on the 320s for currently employed pilots.

In fact, there are some good pay provisions in the contract. Training pay is generous, "downturn in economy" is reasonable (minimum 70 hour guarantee), and the "Merit Pay" scheme has potential (I wouldn't expect much Merit Pay if I was trying to organize a union, though. ) If rates for new hires go up, rates for everyone go up, so the older guys don't get locked in at lower scales. There is no language that addresses what might happen if they begin offering New Hire 320 pilots LOWER rates. Practically speaking, I have confidence that even the productivity-focused team at JetBlue will NOT consider lower rates on the A-320. Profit and the improving economy simply won't justify that approach currently.

It should be interesting to see how the next round of individual contracts will be... ooops, I almost said negotiated... ummm.... will be constructed.

 

[SpeedBird]

Well now don't we have a superiority complex!

Tell me Tony what have you done to promote the overall health and welfare of pilots in the profession other than paying your monthly dues and making rubber stamp votes on your periodic TAs?

A real "professional" and a member of a pilot group that enjoys the top-shelf benefits of all this profession can offer would surely extend not only constructive criticism, but more importantly balance such criticism with seasoned advise and support to others who could take such advise and do something productive with it.

Unfortunately for you your choice has been to lower the debate with a holier than thou attitude, and further poison the water among pilots who would otherwise be better served by putting their backs together and working in a more unified and productive way to make this profession what it should be and not what it has turned into.

I hope you feel better now that you've told us how inferior we are as pilots, and its just too bad for us we can't be like you...a shining example of what of a true professional is.

You and your ilk are now the growing majority that roam these boards to do nothing more harrass and belittle other pilots with your simpleton views of how it should be just so you can inflate your fragile ego via a computer terminal. I thought you were cut from a different cloth but boy was I wrong!

My only regret is that jetblue doesn't move express cargo. It would've been fun to watch you squirm.