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A few questions (FAR/logbook)

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Herkenstein

New member
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
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4
For those who may have been there before... I am in the process of updating my resume and logbook, and have come up with a few questions on how to log my military time. I've talked to the local FSDO, read the part 61 FAQ and did a few searches on this board, but cannot find exactly what I'm looking for (and the FSDO does not routinely deal with many military pilots, so they may not be familiar with some of the peculiarities).

Background: Attended UPT in 2004-2005, trained in the T-37 and T-44, then attended FTU at LRAFB for the C-130. Prior to UPT, I held a commercial/single-engine certificate with instrument rating. After completing UPT and receiving my military pilot rating, I had multi-engine priviliges added to my commercial certificate (certified by the local DE). Have a current Form 8 from the C-130.

Q1: I am current (per 61.57) for instruments, having logged the appropriate number of approaches, etc. Some employers have asked for the date of my last instrument proficiency check - I am using the date of my form 8 checkride (even though @ LRAFB, the form 8 checkride is split - instrument check in the sim about a month prior to landing check in the plane, which is the date on the form 8). Is this correct? Also, I assume instrument checkrides during UPT do NOT count as IPCs, is this also correct? (See PIC logging below)

Q2: Same thing for the BFR - I am current, using the date of my form 8. Could I also count the date of graduation (winging) from UPT as a BFR? Or the date of my last checkride at UPT? Not such a big deal, as the form 8 is more current, but I just want to make sure my logbook is annotated correctly.

Q3: Per 61.31(g)(3)(iii), I do not need a high altitude endorsement if I have a PIC checkout by the military. Does the form 8 qualify? (Once completing initial C-130 training, we are now "first pilots" - not copilots, and not aircraft commanders). If it does not qualify, may I receive an endorsement from a civilian flight instructor if they are provided with a record of my physio training and form 8? Or do I need to actually receive the training in a sim/plane from that instructor?

Q4: Logging flight time.... In the T-37, I logged all time as dual received, except my student solos, which were logged as solo/PIC. In the T-44, I logged all time as dual received, except "solos" (two students on board, one is acting PIC - has signed for the plane), which I logged as PIC. In the C-130. I logged all time as dual received until my form 8 checkride. I have NO IDEA if this is correct. I also logged all other (dual received) time in the T-44 as SIC. The T-44 required (by regulation) two pilots. My FSDO did not see it that way - since the civilian king air does not require two pilots, he stated that I could not log it as SIC. However, according to 61.51 & 61.55, since the military DID require two pilots, and I am "qualified" per 61.55, I may log it as such.

- Did I need to log all this time as "dual received"? Do I log C-130 flight training @ the FTU as dual received even after the form 8 checkride?
- Do I keep my T-44/C-130 time as "SIC"? Reading previous posts, you can log PIC during the time you were the "sole manipulator", but I don't want to get this confused with "A" time. My log book already has hundreds of little notes (since the AF and Navy log things differently), and I know different companies qualify PIC time differently, so is it worth it to log PIC/non-A time, or just log it all as SIC?
- Do I log "dual received" in the flight simulator?

Q5: As for the sims, do I only log time during which I specifically was being evaluated (acting PIC)? Or do I log the entire sim, the other time performing duties as co-pilot?

Sorry to be so long-winded, and I know I could ask these questions to 10 different FSDOs, and get 15 different answers, but I'm hoping there's someone else out there who has some real world information. And if there are previous threads regarding some of these, I am sorry for reposting.
 
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whoa...one ques at a time!

Ok, I'll do my best (after a successful logbook review at an airline interview...)

obviously, having been a pilot prior to entering the military, you've probably got 2 logbooks now... (well, seeing as you're USAF, one civi logbook, and one computer disk...) As a Navy guy, I'm not sure what kind of written record you get of your monthly flights...

Q1: An INST CK and a "landing ck" are 2 DIFFERENT qualifications. Use the date of your INST CK...(In the navy, it is logged as a 2L3 for instruments, and a 2L4 for a NATOPS [landing] ck ride) Since you've got your own logbook, annotate it as such in the remarks section, and if possible, get the IP to sign it. Any and all time in flight school (UPT for the USAF types) is STUDENT TIME... However, your final INST ck in the T-44 --I4890-- (I instruct on the TC-12 -- so it's very similar) DOES count as a qualifying Type Rating ride...(if a type exists for the Be90)

For the biennial flight review...I would say sure, your most current " Form 8" and previous to that would be your I4890 in VT-31.

Q3 - I don't have any formal record showing that I am endorsed for Hi altitude.. for the military folks, it's a non-issue, and any competent employer would see it as such.. I wouldn't worry about it...

Q4 Always a good question for the military pilots... short answer: any time you ARE NOT THE AIRCRAFT COMMANDER, you should NOT log as PIC...Dual received is like saying, " I was being taught something, or monitored while I tried something"... this pretty much encompasses ALL of flight school. Sim time doesn't matter a whole lot, as long as it's counted solely as Flight Simulator time only... (if you want to call that Dual received too, I don't see a problem)
I did not log any of my flight school time as PIC....(even solo events... they were just "solo"... as a non-rated (or student) pilot, I did not rate logging PIC) also, no SIC either... I simply logged ALL flight school time under the "Student column".. as soon as I made it to the RAG (you're LRAFB phase) all time is SIC...(and dual received if applicable)
As soon as you make AC, and you sign for the plane, you start your PIC column.

Q5 as far as your sims, I'm sure you could justify the whole time, but does that really make sense to you? For a 1.5 hour sim event in the navy, even though you're going thru the event with a fellow student, your logbook is only going to get an entry for 1.5 (not 3.0!) I would follow that logic... Also, I'm sure you had a syllabus requirement for X amount of sim hours... (and the way that is calculated, is the time when YOU are in the "hot seat" -- NOT playing CP for your buddy....)

Hope that helps.. sorry it was as long winded as your questions, but bottom line is that there are as many interpretations of flight time as there are companies... I suggest not only you keep a paper logbook, but that you enter all your time in an excel spreadsheet so you can manipulate your hours however you need to based on who's asking you!
good luck! enjoy the slick
 
FAR Part 1 says that only the one responsible for the aircraft is the PIC. If you don't have a Aircraft Commander Form 8 I wouldn't log it as PIC.

I logged all my time at UPT as either dual or solo. The "PIC" time from UPT is soooo small it wouldn't matter anyway. The FAR's are screwed up, imagine that, when it comes to logging PIC as a student. Until you get a private pilot certificate you can't log PIC, even when solo. Pretty stupid, but that's the rule. I don't know how that would affect mil time.

Either way, if an airline suspects that you are trying anything funny they will probably pass on you. I'm not saying you are, just be careful.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE
 
Thanks oneway for the very quick (and thorough) response! I'll keep my "student" time from UPT logged as dual, and not worry about the PIC thing. Wasn't 100% sure about the sim time though - I know the Navy logged my sim time as 1/2 the total (which is what I put in my logbook), but I have to check my ARMS printout for what the Air Force put. All my time is pretty much screwed up on the ARMS printout anyways from UPT. (Which made me feel better about logging all my flights in a separate logbook - not many people do, but I would highly recommend it for the reserve/guard folk who might be looking for a job when they're done, instead of blindly trusting the computer printout).
 
However you do it, I highly recommend keeping your civilian time completely separate from your military time. When I walked in to an airline interview, the interviewers were always relieved to see that I had an Individual Flying Summary/History (available from your squadron ARM) instead of traditional log books (if you're interested in that kind of thing). Just periodically check these times against what you think you should have.
 
Do the Log Book ! ! !

Herkenstein,
Having been there, my recommendation is to keep a logbook (civilian) and let ARMS keep your military time. Total time in ARMS - OTHER TIME should equal your total logbook (civilian) time. Also, log your instrument time . . . I was lax in ensuring that was done. It didn't hurt me, but with as much time as I had in the AF, I should have logged more instrument time . . . BJ20, AA30, LOL.

:confused: Why keep a logbook? Why stick pins on a map of places you've been? After 20 years of service I was involved in some pretty interesting actions . . . its nice to be able to review the old log book and reminisce about the good ol' days. I'm pretty sure there are some pretty intersting actions going on now. Fly safe! Also, when circumstances get hairy or interesting :eek: , annotate that as well, and always include your whole crew to include FEs and LMs. An excel spread sheet is helpful as well . . . Excel doesn't make math errors, but you gotta put in the right numbers.

That logbook will come in very handy when you're prepping for interviews in the style of TMAATT (Tell me about a time that . . . ).

Of course, this is all pretty much oldschool, but . . .
Cheers, and good luck :beer:
'Props
 

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