A choice for the transfers still at Flex

[luckydog]

Lucky, please post the seniority numbers who got screwed. If you are going to be a mamnagement plant, the least you should do is post who you are bogusly claiming got screwed. Because 238 out of 299 Flexjet pilots are better off by straight percentage placement with this list. So who are the "100+" who got screwed.

If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.

 

[V1 Rotate]

If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.

Trust me, we have spreadsheets and word documents showing almost anything you want to know. If you're wondering what your percentage change was, take your original Flexjet number and divide it by 299, the actual number of Flexjet pilots not including the transfers since technically they're only temporary LOA pilots. Then, to be on the conservative side, use your new, larger OneSky number and divide it by 670. Your change in percentage is the difference in those two numbers. Now, depending on how many transfers stay at Flexjet, your percentage will increase slightly. Hope this helps.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Lucky, please post the seniority numbers who got screwed. If you are going to be a mamnagement plant, the least you should do is post who you are bogusly claiming got screwed. Because 238 out of 299 Flexjet pilots are better off by straight percentage placement with this list. So who are the "100+" who got screwed.

If you and V1 don't already have lists showing every FJ pilots seniority change under multiple scenarios, you guys are more incompetent than I thought.

What's incompetent is to dare someone to do it. The short sighted bravado of this and other statements like kiss my ass are doing the pilot group no favors in licking their wounds and moving on.

There are several lists. I don't know how management did theirs but the one being shared with to top screwed shows 100 plus guys losing. The last thing this pilot group needs is a list of 100 guys by name floating around and pissing people off who didn't even realize they lost.

DOH, do this whole group a favor and gain a little humility. While I'm not one of the screwed I support their right to be pissed. Instead of pivoting that frustration into action, you've given them a while new reason to give up on the union. Why someone in charge hasn't put a muzzle on your mouth is beyond me.

And now we get to the point where no one, myself included, is willing to ruin their reputation by joining your merry mod squad. When you're not attacking each other, you're attacking guys you knowingly ********************ed over. They're smart guys, they know they had to be sacrificed for the greater good but instead of saying thank you you pour vinegar and salt into the wound. Who would want to sign on for that bs?

So El, lucky and everyone else who suffered, I say thank you even though apparently the union will not. Getting this behind us helps us move on to the only part that really matters regarding seniority, our contract. I will drive a "cargo plane full of rubber dog ******************** out of Hong Kong" if they pay me well enough, so seniority is only relative if they can't get a good contract.

 

[doh]

I have no idea what made up list management is using, but as V1 said, we have all the calculations. The reason I'm asking him for those seniority numbers is because there are not anywhere near one hundred pilots who lost on a straight relative percentage basis. That being the case, I want to know where he got those made up numbers and what management promised him for being their plant. Because what he's trying to sell is not true.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Can someone pm me the list that the company thought was fair? When I went to their website, it told me I had to call in. That leads me to believe management was going to throw me under the bus.

 

[luckydog]

I will go over this 1 more time, please read it carefully.

Flexjet is not 299 pilots. At the cutoff date it took about 380 clowns to run this circus. Counting any other way gives every seat past 299 to FLOPS, that makes it look like pilots from Flight Options are already flying OUR planes.

Some of the 380 clowns were on LOA from a different circus, FLOPS, NASA, IDFK, it doesn't matter. They were new hires just as if they came off-the-street. Indoc, new type, IOE, they were new hires. You had no DFR to them as FLOPS pilots, only as FJ pilots. Let KR or their union represent them as they see fit.

Now, take one of those spreadsheets, delete the column make Date Of Hire. Break each list into groups of 5%. I'll help you out, that means there will be 20 groups. Now mix our groups with theirs. Since each 5% block will probably have a slightly different number of people, mix them on a percentage as well.

The list will have the transfer guys listed twice, that's OK. They get to choose which number they want, isn't it great to be a FoK.

So the other guys don't like this approach, that's OK too. They aren't your friends, you don't represent them, you might even go so far as to call them the "enemy". As I understood it, both sides would have to agree to arbitration. If you thought you would lose, just don't agree to submit the lists. FJ isn't in any hurry, we make more money, and are supposedly growing. After KR starts winding down their operation even more, and guys are being put on the street, they might warm up to the percentage plan.

I hope that wasn't too hard to follow. You guys keep telling yourselves how great you did, I'll go back to not caring.

... and me a management plant... that's funny. People say the stupidest things on the internet.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Break each list into groups of 5%. I'll help you out, that means there will be 20 groups.

I don't care who you are that the funniest, most sarcastic thing I've read in a long time.

The beauty of it is a year from now some people will still not know why.

 

[doh]

luckydog:
So the other guys don't like this approach, that's OK too. They aren't your friends, you don't represent them, you might even go so far as to call them the "enemy". As I understood it, both sides would have to agree to arbitration. If you thought you would lose, just don't agree to submit the lists. FJ isn't in any hurry, we make more money, and are supposedly growing. After KR starts winding down their operation even more, and guys are being put on the street, they might warm up to the percentage plan.

I hope that wasn't too hard to follow. You guys keep telling yourselves how great you did, I'll go back to not caring.

... and me a management plant... that's funny. People say the stupidest things on the internet.

Yes, people do say the stupidest things on the internet. Both groups do not need to agree to have arbitration. And the union has a dfr responsibility to all of its members. That includes pilots from both carriers. Let me go over this one more time, very slowly for you; the list is fair and equitable for both pilot groups as a whole. The fact that you are butt hurt that we did not use a methodology that is unfair to more pilots, just because it moves you personally a few numbers up the seniority list, does not mean the list isn't fair and equitable.

 

[Praetorian]

And the union has a dfr responsibility to all of its members. That includes pilots from both carriers. Let me go over this one more time, very slowly for you; the list is fair and equitable for both pilot groups as a whole. The fact that you are butt hurt that we did not use a methodology that is unfair to more pilots, just because it moves you personally a few numbers up the seniority list, does not mean the list isn't fair and equitable.

Spot on doh! Perhaps this will serve as a coda to this damaging and unproductive debate. We are eating our young here guys.

 

[Helmsalee]

I don't know the details here as to when the SLI is final, but if you guys were able to do it without arbitration, good on you. That is rare. Now use that solidarity to move forward to a killer CBA.
Helm

 

[993_Pilot]

I will go over this 1 more time, please read it carefully.

Flexjet is not 299 pilots. At the cutoff date it took about 380 clowns to run this circus. Counting any other way gives every seat past 299 to FLOPS, that makes it look like pilots from Flight Options are already flying OUR planes. ....

Wake up and see it for what it really is. Flexjet is a growing brand and Flight Options is a dying brand because that's the way DAC management wants it. You need to keep in mind that a lot of your growth is because they have been putting all the new airplanes over at Flex as part of the attempt to break the union, and because they have decided that Flexjet will be the "Go Forward" brand, so they have quit selling C-X, & Legacy 600's and are migrating Options customers to CL-300/350's, Legacy 450/500's and G-450's.

 

[V1 Rotate]

Wake up and see it for what it really is. Flexjet is a growing brand and Flight Options is a dying brand because that's the way DAC management wants it. You need to keep in mind that a lot of your growth is because they have been putting all the new airplanes over at Flex as part of the attempt to break the union, and because they have decided that Flexjet will be the "Go Forward" brand, so they have quit selling C-X, & Legacy 600's and are migrating Options customers to CL-300/350's, Legacy 450/500's and G-450's.

You both bring up interesting points. Lucky, a Merger Close Date (MCD) of 12/15/13 was used. The date that both Flexjet and Options became one under the DAC umbrella. At that point, you have to look at how many pilots were on each carrier's property at that time. In Flex's case, it was 299 since no transfers had yet come over. This date is also important because it locks in everything "as was" under two separate management companies and prior to a single management company making changes to the working environment. Such changes could include aircraft orders, RIF's, or TRANSFER OF EMPLOYEES FROM ONE COMPANY TO ANOTHER, that could be seen as trying to influence future happenings such as a union vote, which surely they knew was coming. There is also very recent precedent for this in the United/Continental merger in 2010. So, when you look at the MCD, Flexjet had 299 pilots and Options had 371. After MCD, when the transfers came over and for the purpose of solving SLI, the transfers were seen as temporary employees, with benefits, which they are, since they're on a twelve month LOA. Here today, gone tomorrow. 993 hit on another point with his post about the aircraft. These decisions are being made by a single management system making decisions that affect both sides, post MCD. Again, see the United/Continental merger.

Also, it's interesting to note that the Company is doing a couple of about faces on some major issues. First, in their letter to the IBT and redistributed to the pilots dated February 26th, 2016, they stated:

"In addition, the IBT does not, to the Company?s knowledge, have an internal merger policy in place which would have provided transparency to the pilots of how a possible seniority integration would proceed."

That's not what they were shouting from the rooftops last year, was it? Secondly, in a letter to the pilots from the IBT dated March, 11, 2016, they point out:

"...during our discussions with COO Dave Davies and Flight Options Vice President of Flight Operation Joe Salata, it became apparent that management totally misunderstood the process and rationale underlying the Integrated List. After further explanation, management indicated that the Integrated List may very well be acceptable to the Company."

I'm I the only one that find these quotes of very significant value?

 

[993_Pilot]

You both bring up interesting points. Lucky, a Merger Close Date (MCD) of 12/15/13 was used. The date that both Flexjet and Options became one under the DAC umbrella. At that point, you have to look at how many pilots were on each carrier's property at that time....

Thanks for the clarification regarding how the MCD was used.

Those quotes were both interesting for those paying attention, and also interesting in that letter is how Dave Davies seemed possibly agreeable until he got behind closed doors with Mr. Ricci. That tells you where the real hangup is. My gut tells me that Mr. Ricci cares much more about delaying the 9 month time-line for a JCBA, than SLI or anything else. Their wet dream would be to drag talks out until the next down-turn in the economy. Heck, it worked for them last time.

The favoritism, delay tactics, and not wanting to pay is the same crap that the Options pilots have been dealing with for years. Welcome to the fold, Flexjet.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

The favoritism, delay tactics, and not wanting to pay is the same crap that the Options pilots have been dealing with for years. Welcome to the fold, Flexjet.

That sure exposes the reality of this management team. Say one thing, and do another. This next contact better be a good one. Didn't Kenn say that the Options pilots would be the best paid in the industry? Or was that just another empty promise?

 

[flexible]

Wake up and see it for what it really is. Flexjet is a growing brand and Flight Options is a dying brand because that's the way DAC management wants it.

My oprinion is their decisions to run flops as the Kmart alternative in a Saks world finally caught up wit them. They need the brand change to get a few more years of duping unsuspecting owners into signing up. They bought Flexjet reputation, not really their pilots. The sooner flex realizes that in reality and riccis eyes they are no better than flops pilots and infact meaningless in any equation of his bottom dollar unless they start becoming too expensive.

There's berm dramatic change to operating in past year and getting worse by each month. Sincerely props to every flops pilot out their for not killing anyone yet the way ricci likes to run their show. Much respect. Flexjet we have been spolied and some would rather put on blinders than adapt, while some adapt begrudgingly. Other adapt by leaving and I might be one of them yet. The dream of better days has past.

 

[TexasChallenger]

As one of the pilots that was affected in the middle, i'm ok with the overall list. I wish I could have turned out better but that's life. at first I was not ok with it. But after talking with the sli guys I understand the process better now. I'm ready to move on and get this contract done.

 

[Helmsalee]

Wow, what a refreshing attitude.

 

[Frac Cap]

Yes that is a refreshing attitude. We can only hope that management would finally have that same attitude. This bitter attitude is not going unnoticed. I am already getting asked by customers why the company is not willing to resolve this turmoil and get things done. Then they wonder why they can't sell Gulfstreams. People with that much money don't have it because they are oblivious or stupid. They do their due diligence before they invest their money. Why invest in a company in turmoil. I hope for everyones sake management can just accept thing and move on so we can start growing.

 

[doh]

Anyone else notice the Red Label advertisement at the bottom of this page? "You won't just be flown. You'll be moved." Like a bowel?

 

[rajflyboy]

So


Watch ya all think of the Phenom?

 

[FR8DOG777]

Everyone is worried about ~80 transfers but couldn't give a damn about the 100+ flex pilots who got ********************ed in this sli. ******************** em'

So, let me get this straight? You hate the teamsters, your all butt hurt about how bad you got screwed in SLI, your not man enough to volunteer as an ALPA organizer at FLEX, you expect a better than Netjets contract with the joint CBA but not willing to stand up for the fight? Get over it. Good lord, you son should go into selling insurance. Guess what. I worked at travel air, an even better fractional than flex or netjets. I got screwed in the first merger. I got screwed in the second merger. And guess what? I don't give a ********************. This job affords me the ability to run a business and continue to fly airplanes. Get over it already and focus your attention on the real enemy. The chairman with his hands in your pocket!

 

[doh]

Everyone, lets simmer down. There are a few misconceptions, all caused by dishonest management maneuvers. First, el raton is right. Flexjet should be 380 pilots at this point. But we aren't! because management filled those extra slots with TEMPORARY employees. Why Temporary? Because they have a legal, contractually protected right to return to FO. Would voting out the union have ended that protection? Not just no, but HE!! NO, because they have some kind of secret agreement with management. Look at what Handschuch originally told us: Kenn is hiring them on the bottom of our seniority list. And look at the posts on yammer. "That's not what was agreed on" has been posted by several transfers. Yet, when asked point blank to explain by a Flexjet captain, they all clammed up. So you know they have some special deal that management was going to give them if the vote failed. The upshot is Flexjet is stuck with 299 pilots for purposes,of percentage calculations. Because of management's dishonest maneuvers.
El raton, you need to put the blame for these issues where it belongs. The rest of you, please don't blame him. It is very easy to get sucked in by management's dishonesty. Let's get back on track, fix this, and move on to jcba.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Well what was that secret deal? The company made promises to the temporary transfers. The transfers thought, that by going over to Flex, they could become members of the FOK club. Well SUPRISE!