800SP vs. 800XP

[400A]

Has anyone out there flown a Hawker 800 with the winglets and a 800XP with out winglets. How much difference is there. I am assuming that there is no relacement for the additional thrust, but did the winglets really help. There are a few really low time 800's on the market. I am wondering if winglets and avionics upgrades would be worth it, or would I be building a pink elephant. Any advice from you hawker guys is appriciated.

Anyone have any operational cost numbers on a tip to tail program?

 

[Raskal]

Well, the word around town is that the time to climb is helped a bit and a couple percent increase in range...I don't know if the cost is justified on a straight 8, and the climb won't get close to to XP-which isn't all that great anyway.

Best advice? Buy one of the refurbed 1000's for 8.5mil. I have flown the XP, 700, 800 and 1000 and trust me, the 1000 is the plane the XP wanted to be when it grew up. Why Raytheon still builds the XP is beyond me...it really isn't that nice and certainly not worth the money.

Seriously though, the price is good-even if there is only 52 of them out there. Pratts, fadec and Honeywell...all easily supported for years.

 

[400A]

Well, the word around town is that the time to climb is helped a bit and a couple percent increase in range...I don't know if the cost is justified on a straight 8, and the climb won't get close to to XP-which isn't all that great anyway.

Best advice? Buy one of the refurbed 1000's for 8.5mil. I have flown the XP, 700, 800 and 1000 and trust me, the 1000 is the plane the XP wanted to be when it grew up. Why Raytheon still builds the XP is beyond me...it really isn't that nice and certainly not worth the money.

Seriously though, the price is good-even if there is only 52 of them out there. Pratts, fadec and Honeywell...all easily supported for years.

I would be happy with a 1000, but we are far from mission critical. I also think at 8.5 he would want something newer. My owner wants more cabin. We do not even stretch the Beechjet more than a couple times a year. Just in the research stage now. We have considered 60's as well, but from what i see, KAPF + Wet= no-no for the 60. My other concern is pilot support for the 1000 or the 60. If my co-pilot or I are out, there are tons of 800 drivers in ATL to fill one of the seats.

 

[Choppy]

I would be happy with a 1000, but we are far from mission critical. I also think at 8.5 he would want something newer. My owner wants more cabin. We do not even stretch the Beechjet more than a couple times a year. Just in the research stage now. We have considered 60's as well, but from what i see, KAPF + Wet= no-no for the 60. My other concern is pilot support for the 1000 or the 60. If my co-pilot or I are out, there are tons of 800 drivers in ATL to fill one of the seats.

Co-pilot..... That's nice. Are you the Chief Pilot. I bet you let everyone know you are the Head Cheese! I don't understand people who have to put titles on other pilots. I bet you the Co-pilot is every bit as qualified as you are to run the position.

 

[400A]

Co-pilot..... That's nice. Are you the Chief Pilot. I bet you let everyone know you are the Head Cheese! I don't understand people who have to put titles on other pilots. I bet you the Co-pilot is every bit as qualified as you are to run the position.

What else would you have me call him there Richard?

As a matter of fact he is quite qualified. I make it a point to hire pilots that are every bit as qualified as I am. In fact he is already typed in the Hawker and has 1000 more hours in the beechjet than me. I am not a control freak, and my fellow employees will attest to that. They are involved in almost all decisions in our operation. But you are correct, I am Chief Pilot for our operation and it is my head that will roll if things are not done right. I am sorry that you seem to have some complex against someone being in charge. I do not see how calling someone co-pilot / co-captain or what ever is an insult.

You need help, and untill you get it please keep your mouth shut. I do not need your flame bait. I was looking for information.

 

[Raskal]

Ouch...looks like you hit a nerve there

Yeah, I get what you're saying...I guess I'm just so used to every pax stretching every one of our aircraft to the limits that a non "mission-critical" flight is a rarity.

Just out of curiosity, if the better range etc...isn't a concern than is there any reason a re-paneled, maybe re-interiored 800 wouldn't work for you? After all, if the aircraft works for the missions the owner wants to fly then there isn't really any such thing as a pink elephant, no?

If you're worried about resale I can't imagine the current market allowing you to get the cost of the winglet package back on an 800a...but, if you're not than who cares?

 

[400A]

Ouch...looks like you hit a nerve there

Yeah, I get what you're saying...I guess I'm just so used to every pax stretching every one of our aircraft to the limits that a non "mission-critical" flight is a rarity.

Just out of curiosity, if the better range etc...isn't a concern than is there any reason a re-paneled, maybe re-interiored 800 wouldn't work for you? After all, if the aircraft works for the missions the owner wants to fly then there isn't really any such thing as a pink elephant, no?

If you're worried about resale I can't imagine the current market allowing you to get the cost of the winglet package back on an 800a...but, if you're not than who cares?

That is really what we are thinking. I just dont see the XP price difference since we are not critical. Do you know what re-paneled options are out there? Has anyone put proline 21 in it yet? The boss likes the looks of the winglets. I thought on the rare long trips we take they might help out. I would never expect to get the investment back on fuel savings, but I figured it would not hurt resale either.There is a couple really low time 800A's out there for sale. around 3 mil less than the XP.

Our average mision is 1.5 to 2 hours with 2-4 people. We dont even test the Beechjet. He just wants to stand up and have a real lav.

 

[Choppy]

Someone is a little freaked out!! I never mentioned control freak!? What a hot-head. I bet you are a joy to fly with!

 

[400A]

Someone is a little freaked out!! I never mentioned control freak!? What a hot-head. I bet you are a joy to fly with!

Freaked Out? Not hardly, I just cant stand it when windbags like you pipe in with stupid remarks like that when I was looking for useful information.

As with most of of your post I have read, you still have nothing useful to say. I bet you are miserable to fly with!!!

You sir are a TOOL!

 

[Choppy]

As with most of your P O S T S .... plural. Go to bed so you don't miss school in the morning.

 

[400A]

As with most of your P O S T S .... plural. Go to bed so you don't miss school in the morning.

Put the pipe down and maybe you will grow a personality. Once you grow a personality then you might have something useful to say, but I doubt it.

 

[waveoff]

Quick! Someone call the WAAAHmbulance!

Back on topic...

I haven't flown an 800SP but I have flown my company's 800XP extensively before and after it had winglets. Also, the winglets on our XP are Raytheon ones and are noticeably smaller than the Aviation Partners ones...so take this review for what it's worth.

There wasn't a night and day difference in performance but it was noticeable. Before the winglets, the climb would peter out in the low 30's but after the winglets it climbed through the 30's like it was still down in the 20's. You do have to watch the airspeed though when trying to extract more performance from the winglet equipped plane. I like to climb at 250 KIAS initially and then transition to .71 Mach. Some other guys like to climb at 280 KIAS and then transition to .75 Mach. I didn't notice a difference in fuel burn with either method. Also, before the winglets were installed, we could hit Mmo (.80) at FL410 with power set at just below MCT. After the winglets, it wouldn't come anywhere near Mmo at altitude with the power levers firewalled. But you trade off the faster cruise for a tad bit more range. The real fuel savings come when you fly at long range cruise. A coast-to-coast trip from east to west, non-stop is now possible without having to worry...provided the winds aren't too strong. A trip from TEB to SFO with an average headwind of 50 knots is definitely doable provided you get to altitude quick enough and fly at long range cruise. It might take you 6.5 hours but you'll make it non-stop and land with 1500 lbs.

 

[400A]

Thanks, that is interesting. The Aviation Partners winglets claim higher cruise as well. This is the kind of info I was looking for.

Was there an AFM revision with new runway numbers?

 

[Bandit60]

Thanks, that is interesting. The Aviation Partners winglets claim higher cruise as well. This is the kind of info I was looking for.

Was there an AFM revision with new runway numbers?

The answer to your question is NO!.

 

[southernpilot]

Children, children......is this going to turn into another NBAA name calling session?

 

[IronManNDFW]

Having flown the 800, 800XP & 1000 I think I may have a dog in this hunt.

Good and bad about both.

800 is a nce airplane to fly, good as any Hawker. XP has better thrust than the straight 8. Putting on the winglets gets you about 3% more performace. That is why RTN has now put out the 850XP.

The XP already comes with collins. In order to make an 800 repanneled, Interior & paint my suspicion is that now your going to be talking the price of an XP with collins already installed.

Raskal just remember that the 1000's were built before the XP's so the 1K's are older. The 1000 is not what the XP wanted to be when it grows up. Not to take anything away from the 1K it is a great airplane also, but as you stated only 56 are around and few of us are typed and readly available for Pop-Ups.

The 60 is a nce airplane too, but I perfer the cabin of the Hawkers. More room to move around.

I have posted a thread about Hawkers on http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=91280&page=2

If you need more PM me.

 

[StarHustler]

Ok, I have a question for all you Hawker experts.

Would you consider an initial salary of $45k on a Hawker 800a for a Part 135 Charter company in South Florida (this offer also includes 100% paid company healthcare for the employee only) to be a fair amount? Now bear in mind that the company would also pay for the Type rating and that the applicant has about 4,000 hours, ATP, but has no type ratings or Jet experience (he does however have PIC turboprop time).

Any constructive thoughts are welcome. Thanks!

 

[400A]

Ok, I have a question for all you Hawker experts.

Would you consider an initial salary of $45k on a Hawker 800a for a Part 135 Charter company in South Florida (this offer also includes 100% paid company healthcare for the employee only) to be a fair amount? Now bear in mind that the company would also pay for the Type rating and that the applicant has about 4,000 hours, ATP, but has no type ratings or Jet experience (he does however have PIC turboprop time).

Any constructive thoughts are welcome. Thanks!

If that is an SIC position, and you don't have to sign a contract then it is only a little low, but of course way better than the regionals. If that is a PIC position that is WAY low. If they want you to sign a contract to PIC at that pay,,,, DON'T.

 

[TimsKeeper]

PIC or SIC?

Contract or no contract 45000 a year is fair for an SIC in Florida if you are getting typed, no experience. If that is for PIC run ...that is absurd!

Even for a low ball salary 60000 should be starting.

Do what you want though, don't listen to these people that have nothing better to do than critize others decisions. Always do what's best for you because these whiners don't give a crap about you....take that to the bank.

 

[StarHustler]

Im sorry, I should have been more specific. It is for an SIC position (although they are offering PIC qualified) and they DO require you to sign a one year promissory note.