8 hours flight time limitation

[eaglerjdfw]

Does anyone know the latest on 8 hours flight time? (air carrier 121 domestic)

I recently diverted on a scheduled flight and was then added an extra trip to reposition the aircraft to the destination. With the additional flight time for the diversion, and the reposition flight I was going to end up with 9 hours of flight time. I was told by my dispatcher that is was legal since it was wx. I was told this before I had departed on the flight that would take me over my 8 hour limit. This was all scheduled flight time, not actual. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks!


Protect your certificates!!!

 

[Andy Neill]

It would depend on whether the point to which you were repositioning after your diversion was on your original schedule or not. For instance if you were doing three out and backs from A to B and, on the last out, you were diverted to C for weather, then I could see you legally accepting the trip to A or B (but not to D) in an effort to "get back onto your scheduled route". If they wanted you to go to D instead, then that would consitute a new schedule and you would have to analyze its legality in light of what you had already flown added to what they were wanting you to do. If that exceeded 8 hours, then no go.

 

[chperplt]

As Andy said, if you were taking the aircraft to its originally dispatched destination you are legal.

If you are repositioning the aircraft under part 91, time limits do not apply, unless you have a contract which stipulates a limit.

As a side note, I wrote my graduate thesis on the topic of flight crew fatigue and wrote a great deal about the 8 hour rule. This is a topic that many pilots do not fully understand.

You can go to Flight time limitations and read what ALPA has to say about the rules. Granted, some of the material is written as ALPA interprets the rules, but there is some great information there.


http://www.alpa.org/internet/projects/ftdt/index.html

 

[dispatchguy]

Scheduled means how your trip was built by the schedule planners, actual means whats happening now.

Now, if they had tried to reassign to something not on your original trip, after you landed at the diversion airport, and that reassignment put you over 8, then that would be a no no, but continuing on your scheduled flight, is legal over 8 - just make sure you dont exceed 16 hours actual duty time - thats also a no no, regardless how your trip was built.

 

[Jetpig]

I agree with most of the statements refering to how the trip was scheduled. However, I disagree with comment on the last leg being part 91. Regardless if it was 91 ,135, 121 it was commercial time. Meaning you are being paid for it, and the limit stipulates commercial time.

 

[dispatchguy]

I've done crew scheduling for two airlines, including one of the Big 3 majors, and their contracts simply said that all flying done for the company would count, whether its part 91 or not. Just makes the math easier if nothing else.

When I worked at Kalitta eons ago at HUF, they wouldnt count 91 time as part of the 8 hour max calculation. I remember talking to a DC8 crew, and they were bitching about having done a turn to the UK from the east coast, all of it Part 91.

I wouldve bitched too.

 

[neflier]

I agree with most of the statements refering to how the trip was scheduled. However, I disagree with comment on the last leg being part 91. Regardless if it was 91 ,135, 121 it was commercial time. Meaning you are being paid for it, and the limit stipulates commercial time.

You are confusing apples and oranges. A part 91 repo that causes you to go over 8 in a duty period or 30/7, etc is often refered to as 'tail end ferry' and is perfectly legal. Now, if you started you day with a 91 ferry, that time counts towards your 8 hours and must be included if your last flight is flown under 121.

The basic idea is that neither the company you work for, nor the FAA cares if you are so tired that you create a smoking hole during a repo (91 ops). Just don't be that tired with paying pax in the back.

 

[cvsfly]

A Part 135 air ambulance company I flew for would encourage one to Part 91 repo after a full duty and flight time, but they disclaimed that they could not demand you to do that and told you not to reflect the time on your trip sheet. I think the appearance of flying over duty and flight for a repo, although in a regulatory gray area looks bad. This was single pilot C-340 - 8 hr scheduled flight and 14 hr max duty during any 24 hr period. The real catch came the next day when you were looking for 10 hr rest and to make sure your flight time didn't overlap and put you over 8 hr of flying in any 24 hr period.

 

[chperplt]

Regardless if it was 91 ,135, 121 it was commercial time. Meaning you are being paid for it, and the limit stipulates
commercial time.

Jetpig

You are incorrect. Unless a contract says otherwise, a part 91 repo flight at the end of his day does not count against his 8 hour day. As neflier said, the FAA doesn't care if you fly all night long after you've completed your "revenue" flying day.

 

[Jetpig]

Maybe I am wrong? However, it is my understanding that the the flight time limits refer to all commercial flying in a day, month, year etc. Wether it was for the same company or two. At the end of the day the total can not exceed 8 hours or what ever FAR applies to your ops. So if I fly for company B and I am employed as a pilot I can not fly more than 8 hours for compensation wether it be a revenue flight, repo or going to job number two and continueing my day there.

My company does it as well and I don't think it is rightl or safe. If I have mis-interperated please enlighten me. Thanks

 

[chperplt]

Maybe I am wrong? However, it is my understanding that the the flight time limits refer to all commercial flying in a day, month, year etc. Wether it was for the same company or two. At the end of the day the total can not exceed 8 hours or what ever FAR applies to your ops. So if I fly for company B and I am employed as a pilot I can not fly more than 8 hours for compensation wether it be a revenue flight, repo or going to job number two and continueing my day there.

The commercial flying limitations are pretty specific to week, month, and year (121.471) . All commercial flying done for company A, B, or C will apply to this limitation. Again, this is only specific to weekly, monthly, and yearly totals.

The regulations regarding daily flight time limitations are not so clear.

121.471 (G) says A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

The "legal to start legal to finish" line applies. As long as your schedule does not change from when you started, you can complete the day regardless of hours flown. Repo flights thrown in at the tail end of the day do not count toward any daily limitations. They do however count toward weekly, monthly, and yearly totals.

If you were given a repo flight at the beginning on your day, your schedule has changed and you must not keep track of your daily times, and not accept a revenue trip that will put you over 8 hours total flight time. You can still repo at the end of your day again though.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Maybe I am wrong? However, it is my understanding that the the flight time limits refer to all commercial flying in a day, month, year etc. Wether it was for the same company or two. At the end of the day the total can not exceed 8 hours or what ever FAR applies to your ops. So if I fly for company B and I am employed as a pilot I can not fly more than 8 hours for compensation wether it be a revenue flight, repo or going to job number two and continueing my day there.

My company does it as well and I don't think it is rightl or safe. If I have mis-interperated please enlighten me. Thanks

According to ALPA. You MAY exceed 30/7, 100/month, and 8 hrs between rest periods as long as you were not SCHEDULED to at the beginning of your duty period. If WX/MX .. delays you, the schedule may be completed (as long as you don't exceed 16 hours -- much to the chagrin of airline mangement.) You may not be re-scheduled to exceed those limits (ie: a change in city pair/flight number.) You can be SCHEDULED to exceed these limits if it is Part 91 tail-end flying.

Part 91 flying counts TOWARD your limits, but the limits can be exceeded with Part 91 flying. The reasoning is that no one cares if you fly fatigued as long as no paying pax are onboard.

Simple enough? Visit ALPA's site for more detailed analysis.

 

[cvsfly]

Quote: Part 91 flying counts TOWARD your limits, but the limits can be exceeded with Part 91 flying. The reasoning is that no one cares if you fly fatigued as long as no paying pax are onboard.

Well I mind. Whatever keeps me safe is what keeps the passengers safe not other way around.

 

[501261]

Jetpig, CVSFLY,

Legally you can fly a tail end reposition under 91 after you are over duty. If your contract does not permit this that is one thing, but we are talking FAR's. If the flight is done under 91, flight and duty limitations do not apply. Now is it safe under 91.13, you have to be the judge of that.

My old POI also told our company that while legal, he takes a very dim view of tale end repositions and if he found out that the company was forcing pilots to make these flights (thereby making it 135) he would try to violate the company. In our case the bottom line was that it had to be the pilot's choice to reposition or spend the night at an outstation, not the company's.
.

 

[cvsfly]

Agreed. Rule 1: fly safe. Rule 2: fly legal Rule 3: being legal does not always mean safe. Rule 4: if you can't be both safe and legal, choose being safe.

 

[Cornelius]

Its my understanding that you can also exceed the 14 hr duty day as long as when you exceed it that its not part 121 legs. For example, I had a 15.25 hr duty day once because I had to fly two repo legs. It sucked pretty bad but the dispatcher also said I don't have to accept it which is good to know. I did it anyways and it probably wasn't the smartest thing to do, although legal.

 

[KingAirer]

Anxiously waiting on GLA

Its been about three weeks since i applied to GLAkes so im thining theyre not going to call b/c i think i remeber it stating they only keep the resumes on file for a month....SO what does it take to get noticed at lakes since its all handled thru an outside agency and GLA doesnt want to be called?? I dotn know anyone at GLA so am i just screwed??
Thanks dude
jb

 

[chperplt]

Its my understanding that you can also exceed the 14 hr duty day as long as when you exceed it that its not part 121 legs.

Is the 14 hour duty day a contractual thing?? Because according to the FARs, there is no maximum duty day in hours. All the regs say is that you must be able to continuously look back and see a minimum of 8 hours rest in the preceding 24 hours.. Effectively limiting you to a 16 hour day per the FARs.

 

[Cornelius]

Its not contractual, I just remember some instructors mentioning that (14 hrs) number. 16 would make more sense though. I could be wrong as sometimes I'm known to be.

 

[501261]

"Is the 14 hour duty day a contractual thing?? "

FAR's!

121.471b and 135.267c state the appropriate duty and flight time limitations.

Basically in the 121 world you have to have 8 hours rest if you fly less than 8 hours. Under 135 you need to have 10 hours rest (because it’s unscheduled) before you can accept an assignment, with a maximum duty day of 14 hours.

These FAR's can be extended or reduced with additional crewmembers, or less flight time, etc.

The basic question asked though, is can you reposition an airplane over duty? The answer is YES, because there are no Flight Time or Duty Limitations under 91, and most repositioning flights are conducted under 91. However, under no circumstances can you reposition before a revenue leg and NOT count that as being part of your duty time.

 

[chperplt]

FAR'S! my ass

<<<Is the 14 hour duty day a contractual thing?? "

FAR's!

121.471b and 135.267c state the appropriate duty and flight time limitations.

Basically in the 121 world you have to have 8 hours rest if you fly less than 8 hours. Under 135 you need to have 10 hours rest (because it’s unscheduled) before you can accept an assignment, with a maximum duty day of 14 hours. >>>>

501261

See FAR 121.471 below. Where does is say that you have a maximum duty day of 14 hours? I think you need to reread the regulations and gather a better understanding of them! You also might want to visit www.alpa.org for a better understanding of flight time and crew rest requirements. You might want to also reread all the other posts that give eaglerjdfw the correct information.

Also, where does 121.471 (B) say anything about maximum duty day? It talkes about required rest after a duty day.





§ 121.471 Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All flight crewmembers.

(a) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time in scheduled air transportation or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --

(1) 1,000 hours in any calendar year;

(2) 100 hours in any calendar month;

(3) 30 hours in any 7 consecutive days;

(4) 8 hours between required rest periods.

(b) Except as provided in paragraph (c) of this section, no certificate holder conducting domestic operations may schedule a flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment for flight time during the 24 consecutive hours preceding the scheduled completion of any flight segment without a scheduled rest period during that 24 hours of at least the following:

(1) 9 consecutive hours of rest for less than 8 hours of scheduled flight time.

(2) 10 consecutive hours of rest for 8 or more but less than 9 hours of scheduled flight time.

(3) 11 consecutive hours of rest for 9 or more hours of scheduled flight time.

(c) A certificate holder may schedule a flight crewmember for less than the rest required in paragraph (b) of this section or may reduce a scheduled rest under the following conditions:

(1) A rest required under paragraph (b)(1) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 10 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

(2) A rest required under paragraph (b)(2) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 8 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 11 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

(3) A rest required under paragraph (b)(3) of this section may be scheduled for or reduced to a minimum of 9 hours if the flight crewmember is given a rest period of at least 12 hours that must begin no later than 24 hours after the commencement of the reduced rest period.

(4) No certificate holder may assign, nor may any flight crewmember perform any flight time with the certificate holder unless the flight crewmember has had at least the minimum rest required under this paragraph.

(d) Each certificate holder conducting domestic operations shall relieve each flight crewmember engaged in scheduled air transportation from all further duty for at least 24 consecutive hours during any 7 consecutive days.

(e) No certificate holder conducting domestic operations may assign any flight crewmember and no flight crewmember may accept assignment to any duty with the air carrier during any required rest period.

(f) Time spent in transportation, not local in character, that a certificate holder requires of a flight crewmember and provides to transport the crewmember to an airport at which he is to serve on a flight as a crewmember, or from an airport at which he was relieved from duty to return to his home station, is not considered part of a rest period.

(g) A flight crewmember is not considered to be scheduled for flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned are scheduled and normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the scheduled time.

 

[501261]

Relax, Chperplt!

If you were to reread my post you will notice I said "Under 135 you need to have 10 hours rest (because it’s unscheduled) before you can accept an assignment, with a maximum duty day of 14 hours.” Read the first 2 words again, under 135, specifically 135.267c.

You are correct under 121 there is no 14 hour duty day, but in the bigger world of aviation there might be some rules that do not apply to you.

I apologize for writing a sloppy paragraph that combined the two 121 & 135 worlds, so that I could answer the basic question. If you could reposition over duty or FLIGHT time limitations?

Having just reread all the posts it appears to me that we are in complete agreement in every aspect of this discussion.

135.267c:
A flight crewmember's flight time may exceed the flight time limits of paragraph (b) of this section if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and --

 

[chperplt]

Sorry man, I had just woken up..

 

[dispatchguy]

16 hour max

There was a recent FAR interpretation that mandated a 16 hour maximum duty day for 121 operators.

That means that, even in irregular operations, you must be able to look back and see an 8 hour rest within the preceding 24 hours, which means that, say you were number 15 in line for departure after sitting on the taxiway for 2 hours, and by looking at your scheduled flightplan time, it appears that you will exceed a 16 hour actual duty day

Youre not legal to take off, period. The FAA will consider that departure to be a violation of 121.471