787 fire while on the ground and unoccupied at BOS

[Andy]

I don't care if it's a yoke or a side-stick, as long as they show me the money.

I don't like the yoke because it makes the cockpit more cramped. With everything being fly-by-wire, there's no need to keep the yoke.

 

[SWA Bubba]

My bad. To me, it read like you were ticked off. My apologies for misreading your intent.

It's all good. Hmmm... maybe I'm just not as funny as I thought.

Nah, THAT can't be it...

Bubba

 

[dougdrvr]

I don't like the yoke because it makes the cockpit more cramped. With everything being fly-by-wire, there's no need to keep the yoke.

It's hard to resist the "cool" factor of the side stick, not to mention the comfort, but one can't help but wonder if at least one of the ill fated Air France crew may have been alarmed by the FO holding the yoke back in his gut!

 

[Andy]

It's hard to resist the "cool" factor of the side stick, not to mention the comfort, but one can't help but wonder if at least one of the ill fated Air France crew may have been alarmed by the FO holding the yoke back in his gut!

I don't think it would have mattered for the two who were on the flight deck at the time. Both lacked a diverse flying history. Two thousand hours of transatlantic cruise flight isn't the best environment to understand abnormal flight characteristics. The experienced Captain entered the flight deck less than 3 minutes prior to impact, likely woken from sleep.
250 hour wonder pilots aren't a good solution; the new ATP requirement is a good way to address the shortfalls of the two copilots on the AF447 flight.
Blaming the airbus sidestick for the crash of flight 447 is like blaming a Porsche 911 for two 16 year olds crashing it at a high speed.

Edit: reviewing the AF447 data, keep in mind that the two copilots had the engines fully spooled up for more than 4 minutes and had an AOA of 40 degrees.
Thinking back to my early flying experiences, I can remember being able to keep both the T-37 (pilot training) and the C-150 (CFI training) nose high in a full stall, with a pegged VVI until I finally lowered the nose to break the stall.
I've never flown the A330 but I imagine it's very similar to the A320 series. Very forgiving and designed to be flown by anyone, even those that grew up without electricity. However, proper training is required so that one recognizes and properly responds to what the aircraft's telling the pilots prior to the aircraft reaching such a deep stall (below 60 knots) that the computer no longer gives feedback. >40 degrees AOA, engines fully spooled, below 60 knots - if you're still holding the stick fully aft at that point, it doesn't matter if it's a yoke or sidestick.

 

[NEDude]

I don't think it would have mattered for the two who were on the flight deck at the time. Both lacked a diverse flying history. Two thousand hours of transatlantic cruise flight isn't the best environment to understand abnormal flight characteristics. The experienced Captain entered the flight deck less than 3 minutes prior to impact, likely woken from sleep.
250 hour wonder pilots aren't a good solution; the new ATP requirement is a good way to address the shortfalls of the two copilots on the AF447 flight.
Blaming the airbus sidestick for the crash of flight 447 is like blaming a Porsche 911 for two 16 year olds crashing it at a high speed.

Edit: reviewing the AF447 data, keep in mind that the two copilots had the engines fully spooled up for more than 4 minutes and had an AOA of 40 degrees.
Thinking back to my early flying experiences, I can remember being able to keep both the T-37 (pilot training) and the C-150 (CFI training) nose high in a full stall, with a pegged VVI until I finally lowered the nose to break the stall.
I've never flown the A330 but I imagine it's very similar to the A320 series. Very forgiving and designed to be flown by anyone, even those that grew up without electricity. However, proper training is required so that one recognizes and properly responds to what the aircraft's telling the pilots prior to the aircraft reaching such a deep stall (below 60 knots) that the computer no longer gives feedback. >40 degrees AOA, engines fully spooled, below 60 knots - if you're still holding the stick fully aft at that point, it doesn't matter if it's a yoke or sidestick.

A high altitude stall is very different than a low altitude stall. We have been training them in the sim for a few years now and a very high percentage of pilots cannot recover from a high altitude stall unless given instruction. It is very easy to get into a secondary stall using normal recovery techniques. United gave a presentation at last years North American Airbus operators conference and they presented information that without training 35% of their line check airmen could not recover from a high altitude stall and did exactly what the Air France crew did.

 

[Andy]

A high altitude stall is very different than a low altitude stall. We have been training them in the sim for a few years now and a very high percentage of pilots cannot recover from a high altitude stall unless given instruction. It is very easy to get into a secondary stall using normal recovery techniques. United gave a presentation at last years North American Airbus operators conference and they presented information that without training 35% of their line check airmen could not recover from a high altitude stall and did exactly what the Air France crew did.

35% held the stick full aft with engines spooled up until impact?
If they didn't recognize that they were in a secondary stall for 4 minutes, I'd have to question the quality of their check airmen.

 

[Jeepman]

.....back to the original topic of this thread the 787.

One of the things The Seattle Times mentioned is that with the 787 Boeing told it's suppliers what they wanted and gave them control of the design of that component, such as major components of the electrical system!

Is it true the wings are heated by the electrics and not bleed air? I can't think of another A/C that does this.

 

[Stukadriver]

.....back to the original topic of this thread the 787.

One of the things The Seattle Times mentioned is that with the 787 Boeing told it's suppliers what they wanted and gave them control of the design of that component, such as major components of the electrical system!

Is it true the wings are heated by the electrics and not bleed air? I can't think of another A/C that does this.

It's true. The only system that uses bleed air is the engine anti-ice.

 

[scoreboardII]

So there has to be a few of these things flying just fine, right?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

So there has to be a few of these things flying just fine, right?

Last time I checked there were 18 at ANA and 11 at Japan airlines. There is a lot of talk about outsourcing, electrical systems, windshield cracks and whatever else it's being toss around, but battery runaway, windshield cracks and sticky fuel dump valves are not exclusive problems of the 787, they have nothing to do with outsourcing since all these components are made in good'ol USA. And they have nothing to do with construction methods nor the materials used to build this A/C. These are all just the normal gremlins that appear in all new A/C's designs.