737 Type Ratings

[aussiefly]

I ran into a guy the other day who had recently completed the Flight training 737 type rating (not sure if it was the 200 or the 300 EFIS). Anyway he was a relatively low time commercial pilot who wasnt working within the aviation field. So I was a bit surprised that he had parted with 6k odd for a type rating that he was never going to use.

So I asked him why he would bother and he explained that he was basically an aviation dork with too much money (Well thats half right for most of us anyway - except the money) and that he just really wanted to get some sim time in the larger aircraft type. So he basically just went ahead and did the type rating.

He also mentioned that the more varied knowledge that one has the better pilot you generally are. Therefore he steps up his training regularly to lots of different areas like aerobatics, formation, different types etc. So I was actually pretty impressed with this guys attitude and the reality that hes never going to be up front in a 737.

Anyway, I was wondering that after completing a type rating course like that is he actually able to safely fly a 737. Insurance asside, skills wise would he be able to safely fly the aircraft. The reason I ask is that I cant see the benefit to a sub 1500hr pilot of being typed in something like this but then I guess that anyone would benefit generally from the sim time and the groundschool.

Would be interested in hearing some opinions.

 

[Sim Sweat]

You're saying "insurance aside" basically could he maneuver the airplane. And I'd say he could, given conditions within his abilities. But a low-time guy like that without genuine real-world experience in the flight levels with icing and FMS etc. is not capable. It's like the tired old dream: "Both pilots are unconscious, can anyone fly this airplane" thing again. It's just ink on his certificate, nothing more. No insurance company is going to underwrite it.

 

[aussiefly]

Yeah thats sort of what i figured. It seems to me that the whole type rating thing is a bit of a paper tiger/insurance hurdle. It appears to me that the only way to become competent in an aircraft like that is to do a ground course and sit right seat yanking gear for many years whilst you play catch up. Nothing as good as real experience.

I'm sure you learn plenty about the aircraft systems during a type rating but as far as being a competent pilot it probably doesnt even bring you close. And this is what scares me about some of the regional guys sitting right seat on RJ's at 500 hrs.

I'm a low timer and you wouldnt catch me anywhere near the cockpit on something like that. I realise my current limitations and my experience just doesnt come close to not being a liability int he right seat.

 

[Sim Sweat]

... this is what scares me about some of the regional guys sitting right seat on RJ's at 500 hrs.

Me too. This is going down a different path, but if the state of the industry is such that airlines are having that much trouble recruiting, then what's their total time when they upgrade? When does the POI or someone step in and say, "Whoa!"

 

[aussiefly]

Yeah thats very true. As much as I would hate it because I would like to fly for an airline soon (truth be told I really want to work for airnet), it would be nice to see IFR mins imposed on both seats.

Sometimes I almost feel like asking how many hours the aircrew has before stepping on board.

 

[Flying Illini]

And this is what scares me about some of the regional guys sitting right seat on RJ's at 500 hrs.

Soooo...if someone had 3000TT but it was all as an instructor you would feel more comfortable with them to handle icing conditions? Doesn't really make sense. A 5 yr cfi won't have any more experience dealing with icing in an RJ than a 500TT guy who only instructed for a few months (or no instrucing at all). As an example, if you got on an RJ and saw me (you won't, but if you did) you would probably say, he looks like he's 19 (I'm 26), he's probably fresh out of school and is low time with no experience. In reality, while I am low time (shy of 1500TT) I may have more experience dealing with turbine aircraft operating in the system than some older looking, higher time person has. Compare my time (1000 turbine, PIC type rating, operating IFR in most types of wx) with that of the higher time CFI. Who is more qualified?

If you can complete training, why shouldn't you be allowed to occupy a seat up front? Training is what should be weeding out the people who can't cut it. Granted, the guy who has seen it all will bring more experience to the table, but that doesn't mean that the FNG in the seat to his right can't operate that aircraft just as well (and to the same level) as he can.

Something else to think about...many 500TT or less pilots occupy the right seat in widebody airliners in foreign lands. With the proper training, anyone can fly any aircraft.

 

[Flying Illini]

Me too. This is going down a different path, but if the state of the industry is such that airlines are having that much trouble recruiting, then what's their total time when they upgrade? When does the POI or someone step in and say, "Whoa!"

Well, their TT when upgrading may only be 2500 or 3000TT but you have to remember, if they came on with 500 or even 1000TT, they have 1500-2500 hours in the right seat of that aircraft operating in all sorts of wx and dealing with all sorts of problems...just how much more time would you like them to have before you trust them?!
The POI doesn't care b/c he knows their training is top knotch and he knows they are qualified. Take airlines that will hire street captains. Say you go in at Colgan as a street captain, chances are good that your copilot will have waay more time time in the 1900 than you will...so who is more qualified in that aircraft?

 

[Flying Illini]

it would be nice to see IFR mins imposed on both seats.

Sometimes I almost feel like asking how many hours the aircrew has before stepping on board.

What are "IFR mins?"

Instead of asking how MUCH time, ask what TYPE of time they have. That is a better indication. Co-pilot has 2000 TT...but 1500TT spent flying freight. Is he low time or does he have quality time?
Copilot has 2000TT, but he spent 1000 of that in the military...do you feel better or worse?

 

[aussiefly]

What are "IFR mins?"

Sorry i actually meant part 135 mins to fly single pilot IFR.

 

[Sim Sweat]

Well, their TT when upgrading may only be 2500 or 3000TT but you have to remember, if they came on with 500 or even 1000TT, they have 1500-2500 hours in the right seat of that aircraft operating in all sorts of wx and dealing with all sorts of problems...just how much more time would you like them to have before you trust them?!

I have no issue with that kind of time. What I'm saying is that with a supposed shortage of qualified candidates, or MORE qualified candidates indicated by hiring with 500 TT, I would expect it to drag down the upgrade mins. I don't care what you've been doing, I don't honestly think you're ready for 121 PIC at 1500 TT and an ink-not-dry ATP.

If that's NOT the case, I'm cool with it.

 

[Flying Illini]

I have no issue with that kind of time. What I'm saying is that with a supposed shortage of qualified candidates, or MORE qualified candidates indicated by hiring with 500 TT, I would expect it to drag down the upgrade mins. I don't care what you've been doing, I don't honestly think you're ready for 121 PIC at 1500 TT and an ink-not-dry ATP.

If that's NOT the case, I'm cool with it.

I think I see what you're getting at. You're saying that they may lower the upgrade TT minimums? Somehow, I just don't see the mins going much below 2500TT.

I respect your opinion and I'm not offended by it but I am going to play devil's advocate here. How can you possibly know whether or not I'm ready to be PIC or not? You've never worked with me nor have you flown with me. (btw, I don't think anyone could be a 121 PIC with only 1500TT...I think upgrade mins are, at a minimum, 2500TT but I've been wrong before. Also, I don't have an ATP yet).

Could you also tell me what the difference between a 121 PIC and a 91 or 135 (assuming they are a reputable 135 operator) PIC is?


edit: re-reading this thread, I feel that I'm coming across as a bit of a pompous arse. That wasn't my intention. I apologize if that's how it reads. And to Sim Sweat, don't mis-read what I have written in this post, I don't feel that I am ready to be a Captain yet, I'm well on my way but I'm not there yet...as for when it's time, that's for me and my chief pilot to decide.

 

[taloft]

In reality, while I am low time (shy of 1500TT) I may have more experience dealing with turbine aircraft operating in the system than some older looking, higher time person has. Compare my time (1000 turbine, PIC type rating, operating IFR in most types of wx) with that of the higher time CFI. Who is more qualified?

Qualified for what? You're assuming that the only kind of experience that matters is turbine/IFR/weather. Let's say you take your 1000 hours of turbine, 500 hours of student time and add on top of that 1000 hours of instructing. In that case, you would have much more variety of experience and abilities to draw from. However, just as not all turbine/IFR experience is equal, neither is instructor experience or cargo experience or air ambulance or military or whatever...

Your point is well-taken that being qualified relates more to the quality of the flying than just the quantity of flying or somone's chronological age. There is quality flight time to be had as an instructor just as there is quality flight time to be had in other areas of the profession. It just depends on the individual and their attitude more than the actual type of flying they are doing at the moment. I believe this was the point of the original poster: that a variety of experience can be valuable, but even more important is the attitude of recognizing its value and learning from it.

And let's face it, at 1000 hours turbine (PIC type rating or no), both of us have a hell of a lot left to learn compared to some of the other guys on here.

 

[DX Rick]

So he is going to get thr type just to tell chicks he can fly a 737?
Or is he planning on being a hero one day and rescueing a hijacked 737?

 

[Flying Illini]

Qualified for what? You're assuming that the only kind of experience that matters is turbine/IFR/weather. Let's say you take your 1000 hours of turbine, 500 hours of student time and add on top of that 1000 hours of instructing. In that case, you would have much more variety of experience and abilities to draw from. However, just as not all turbine/IFR experience is equal, neither is instructor experience or cargo experience or air ambulance or military or whatever...

Your point is well-taken that being qualified relates more to the quality of the flying than just the quantity of flying or somone's chronological age. There is quality flight time to be had as an instructor just as there is quality flight time to be had in other areas of the profession. It just depends on the individual and their attitude more than the actual type of flying they are doing at the moment. I believe this was the point of the original poster: that a variety of experience can be valuable, but even more important is the attitude of recognizing its value and learning from it.

And let's face it, at 1000 hours turbine (PIC type rating or no), both of us have a hell of a lot left to learn compared to some of the other guys on here.

I completely agree with you here, as a matter of fact, we may be saying the same thing. If anything, I think I was speaking more about the comment about 500TT guys in the right seat at regionals.
I feel that the more varied the experience, the more you have to draw from, there is no way to argue that point.

And let's face it, at 1000 hours turbine (PIC type rating or no), both of us have a hell of a lot left to learn compared to some of the other guys on here.

In no way did I intend for what I said to come across as me saying that I've got it all figured out. I don't, not even close! The reason I frequent these boards is to continue my education. I'm sure that most people on here have more experience than I do and those that don't have as much TT may have recieved their time flying a mission completely different than anything I've ever experienced so I feel that I can learn from them too. The next "nugget o' knowledge" that you (I) decide to tuck away for later doesn't have to come from a 12,000 hr widebody guy, it may come from the 600hr guy flying jumpers around. Who knows. Always be open to it and you'll never have any problems. It's when you decide that you've "got it figured out" and that there is nothing anyone can tell/teach you that you can get yourself into trouble.

 

[Larryo]

Heck, if you get the rating, you should be able to jump in the plane and fly it safely, even with some problems. But probably not to the level of a good decision making Capt, and certainly no one would hire you to fly their plane.

But you'd probably be qualified for copilot. Build some time, and then check out as Capt. later.

Buying a rating just to hope to get a job....risky.

 

[ultrarunner]

I ran into a guy the other day who had recently completed the Flight training 737 type rating ...he was a relatively low time commercial pilot who wasnt working within the aviation field....

I'm curious..did he already have a type or meet the requirements for a 100% ride? Or did he have to finish the check in the plane.

If he didn't have a type and he did the check in the plane, he had a fair amount of experience.

 

[Sim Sweat]

edit: re-reading this thread, I feel that I'm coming across as a bit of a pompous arse. That wasn't my intention. I apologize if that's how it reads. And to Sim Sweat, don't mis-read what I have written in this post, I don't feel that I am ready to be a Captain yet, I'm well on my way but I'm not there yet...as for when it's time, that's for me and my chief pilot to decide.

I don't take things personally here, my friend. If I did, I wouldn't last long.

I'm far too lazy to really give a good answer to your questions, which are good ones. I don't disagree at all with the concept that I haven't flown with you and can't judge until I do. Hell, who says I'm qualified to judge then?

But I have my own sense of the type of experience necessary to command a transport-category aircraft and the wisdom that comes from that experience. This is really nothing more than "do I want my family in that airplane" when the fecal matter hits the fan and the crew, or part of it, has a grand total of 500 hours TT, no matter what it consists of.

There is nothing personal in it.