737 and VNAV Takeoff

[ImbracableCrunk]

How about a non-political, info-seeking thread?

737 operators, how does your airline use VNAV during takeoff?

Do you wait until 3,000AGL? Do you arm VNAV on the ground? What is your SOP?

Thanks,
IC

 

[GuppyWN]

WN is flaps up. LNAV is/can be armed on the ground.

Gotta watch that autoland though. It's a rough mo fo!

Gup

 

["TheBigPicture"]

CAL:

NADP2 (ICAO B)- 1000' agl

NADP1 (ICAO A)- 1500' agl

 

[dicko]

AirTran:

LNAV is generally armed on the ground and becomes active at 50 feet. VNAV is selected at 1000 feet prior to the "flaps up" call.

CAT3B fully coupled Autoland works like a charm, and usually produces a smoother touchdown than I'm capable of ..... Although that's not really saying much.

 

[redflyer65]

Refusing to answer until we hear Airtran's position on VNAV...and SLI.

Just kidding!

What Gup said.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

So do you accelerate to 250 after flaps up, or do you wait until 3000AGL (NADP2)?

 

["TheBigPicture"]

If you're referencing the CAL procedure, when in VNAV the speed cursor will drive to the flap limit for the current flap setting minus 5kts. When flaps are selected up it will accelerate to clean maneuver, and at 3000' AFL it will drive to 250...at 10,000 it drives to whatever econ climb is. Procedure is the same for NADP 1, except we don't make any flap retractions until 3000' AFL.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

When flaps are selected up it will accelerate to clean maneuver, and at 3000' AFL it will drive to 250...at 10,000 it drives to whatever econ climb is.

Are you programming the FMC for that, or is that a default from Boeing for CAL? That would require a SPD REST of some sort, right?

Thanks for the replies, BTW.

 

["TheBigPicture"]

Are you programming the FMC for that, or is that a default from Boeing for CAL? That would require a SPD REST of some sort, right?

Thanks for the replies, BTW.

Set up that way, no programming req'd...that's what the computer nerds are for

actually there is one exception, on the NADP 1 we have to manually change the Acceleration Ht on the Takeoff Ref page 2/2 to 3000'

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

What prevents the plane from going to 250 after the flaps are up and below 3,000AGL?

 

[densoo]

How about a non-political, info-seeking thread?

737 operators, how does your airline use VNAV during takeoff?

Do you wait until 3,000AGL? Do you arm VNAV on the ground? What is your SOP?

Thanks,
IC

VNAV is a maneuver that is part of a global socialist agenda attempting to control so-called "noise." If the people under the t/o flight path don't like noise they can move somewhere else. That's the free market.

 

[Rough67]

What's VNAV?

 

[GuppyWN]

What's VNAV?

It's a function of automation that when coupled with the autopilot and poor technique that will pull 3g's in transition as the pilot flying shakes his head and curses "the jet."

Gup

 

[EatinRamen]

At my airline...

Prior to takeoff, go to CLIMB page and set speed to 210kts or 220kts (depending on weight), as well as changeover altitude (Field elev + 3,000). Then reset your climb speed to 250KTS. (You can only input speeds in the climb page after you've entered a ZFW on the INIT REF page.)

After t/o, at 1,000AGL, we call "VNAV, Flaps 1"

Out of 10,000' the PF asks the PM to select ECON CLIMB on the CLIMB page to accelerate.

 

[CA1900]

It's a function of automation that when coupled with the autopilot and poor technique that will pull 3g's in transition as the pilot flying shakes his head and curses "the jet."

:laugh:

Perfect!

 

[Mookie]

At my airline...

Prior to takeoff, go to CLIMB page and set speed to 210kts or 220kts (depending on weight), as well as changeover altitude (Field elev + 3,000). Then reset your climb speed to 250KTS. (You can only input speeds in the climb page after you've entered a ZFW on the INIT REF page.)

After t/o, at 1,000AGL, we call "VNAV, Flaps 1"

Out of 10,000' the PF asks the PM to select ECON CLIMB on the CLIMB page to accelerate.

Crunk...I'm flying w one of our check airmen and this is exactly how he does it. It's pretty sweet.

Mookie

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Good ideas. Thanks guys.

Add this question:

Does your airline use VNAV on a V1 cut or do you switch to LVL CHG?

 

[densoo]

Good ideas. Thanks guys.

Add this question:

Does your airline use VNAV on a V1 cut or do you switch to LVL CHG?

CAL uses level change.

 

[jball2]

Fly it like a 200! ;-)

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Fly it like a 200! ;-)

Don't encourage the Arctic Eagles.

 

[AK737FO]

"Fly it like a 200! ;-)"

Agreed!

Way to much button smashin going on here. How bout this - turn the FD off and fly the jet. Like it's freakin rocket science to adjust the pitch of the jet to obtain a speed you desire. Heaven help us...

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

So, EatinRamen and Mookie,

1. No VNAV on the ground
2. T/O --> V2+20
3. 1000' --> "VNAV, F1"
4. Flaps up --> Plane accelerates to the 210/220
5. 3000' --> VNAV accels to 250
6. 10,000' --> Econ climb

So, you had a restriction of 210/220, but you overwrite it to 250 or you have two restrictions?

BigPicture and CAL guys,

What keeps the plane from going to 230 and 250 after the LEDs are retracted?

 

[Mookie]

"Fly it like a 200! ;-)"

Agreed!

Way to much button smashin going on here. How bout this - turn the FD off and fly the jet. Like it's freakin rocket science to adjust the pitch of the jet to obtain a speed you desire. Heaven help us...

-Because the guys who sign our paychecks tell us how to fly it and that ain't the way they tell us too.

why are are guys like you so afraid of flying by the book/ipad?

Mookie

 

[Mookie]

So, EatinRamen and Mookie,

1. No VNAV on the ground
2. T/O --> V2+20
3. 1000' --> "VNAV, F1"
4. Flaps up --> Plane accelerates to the 210/220
5. 3000' --> VNAV accels to 250
6. 10,000' --> Econ climb

So, you had a restriction of 210/220, but you overwrite it to 250 or you have two restrictions?

BigPicture and CAL guys,

What keeps the plane from going to 230 and 250 after the LEDs are retracted?

Yep, except just make sure you make it 3000' plus AFL on the climb page...

it's pretty sweet and actually is less work for the NFP. I just did OAK and SJC this week and that configuaration makes those departures much easier rather than spin punch spin...

Mookie

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Yep, except just make sure you make it 3000' plus AFL on the climb page...

it's pretty sweet and actually is less work for the NFP. I just did OAK and SJC this week and that configuaration makes those departures much easier rather than spin punch spin...

Mookie

Exactly the type of info I was looking for.

Thanks, Mookie!

 

[EatinRamen]

So, EatinRamen and Mookie,

1. No VNAV on the ground
2. T/O --> V2+20
3. 1000' --> "VNAV, F1"
4. Flaps up --> Plane accelerates to the 210/220
5. 3000' --> VNAV accels to 250
6. 10,000' --> Econ climb

So, you had a restriction of 210/220, but you overwrite it to 250 or you have two restrictions?

BigPicture and CAL guys,

What keeps the plane from going to 230 and 250 after the LEDs are retracted?

On the CLIMB page there's two lines to input speeds. The one on the bottom is your initial speed and changeover altitude, the upper speed is your climb speed after the changeover. Since you're overwriting a flaps up clean speed on the lower line, and then overwriting 250KTS after the changeover, the plane will continue to fly at 250 after 10,000' feet unless you select ECON CLIMB.

We use LVL CHG for V1 cuts.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Got it:
TGT SPD 250
CLB REST 220/3000

Sounds smooth.

 

[AK737FO]

Mookie,
There is nothing in the book / ipad that forbids me from using whatever level of automation I choose. There is a time and place for full automation. There is a time and place for no automation. Sadly, many of our pilots (as well as pilots around the world) are no longer able to fly without automation.

Do you remember a training video a few years ago, from American if I recall, that talked about a new Captain's type ride and how they gave him a simple crossing traffic conflict in the sim? He started smashin button and spinnin knobs - and hit the crossing traffic. If I recall the gist of the video, the instructor said - "I'm sorry. We did not mean to do this to you. We crippled you with automation, to the point that you are afraid to just fly the jet. I'm sorry that we did that to you."

It was a turning point in their training where they realized that they had to get back to flying the jet. Guess what - that is starting to happen here. Stay tuned for more required hand flying coming to an AK sim near you! It is not always easy, a guy has to make an effort to hand fly a little every day, but that is the only way to keep a reasonable level of skill sets intact.

Did you know that a few years ago our training dept tried to incorporate a two engine (no problems / 100% jet), no flight director, hand flown ILS? It was a blood bath. There were so many failures in such a short period of time that they pulled it out of the script.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

AK737FO,

I hear ya on the manual vs automated. I spent the last 2 years in Asia, and most pilots there would wee in their pants if they had to do a visual into Juneau. Well, anywhere, really.

However, this thread is about the best way to use automation, if one chooses to use it. There's already umpteen million threads on the other stuff.

 

[Kenny]

Just for those that are interested, at the Southern Hemisphere 73 operator I work for, we just started slecting VNAV on the ground for STD and NADP1 T/O's.

Select VNAV on the ground and accept the default Acceleration Height of 1000' agl for STD departures and change to 3000' agl for NADP1.

In the FMC on the CLB page we use the FMC calculated CLB SPD above 10000 and 250/10000.

On T/O we CLB at V2+15 until Accel Height and then at N1, the speed bug moves to 230. Clean up as normal and once the LE is retracted, the speed bug then moves to 250.

Never flown the 73 anywhere else, so I can't comment on whether this is a sensible way of doing things but considering they have a habit of trying to reinvent the wheel down here, some of it probably seems odd.