727 FE vs 208 PIC

[wingnutt]

ok guys, hope this dosent go into the "stupid question thread" but a friend of mine has been offered a job flying the panel on a 727.

he is now running a 208 and is getting 2 hours flight time a day for less than 30K a year. the FE job pays 40K a year minimum, and supposedly after a year, they will move you into the right seat. FE/FO pay is about identical for the first year or two and the catch seems to be that a slot must open up before he can go to right seat.

i honestly dont know what to tell him as ive known far too many guys who left a 727 FE job because there was no movement. one of these guys has over 4000 hours staring at the freakin panel.

ill tell him to come over here and read the replies.

THX!

 

[habubuaza]

Without a doubt take the FE job. That usually is a quick way into the right seat of the 727

 

[boeingav8r]

duh

Not a stupid question at all. Definately go for the 727 position. It's not so much a pay issue, it's more of the experience he'll receive. You'll be suprised how much you can learn as a flight engineer with a 121 airline. You're part of a crew as opposed to a single pilot operation in the 208. Not to say that the 208 job isn't valuable, I personally believe that the 727 fe position is better in the long run. You will almost always have the opportunity to upgrade to FO. Attrition, retirement or whatever the case may be, there will be opportunity to upgrade eventually, probably slower than normal now due to the current state of our economy. Here's another perk. If he goes thru training and then the company says they don't need him, at least he got a Flight Engineer rating out of the deal and he can probably go back to his 208 job. That says alot because the 727 school is not easy, and it looks good on the resume. While riding side saddle, he'll get the opportunity to really learn the aircraft so when it's time to upgrade, he'll be that much ahead. You mention that you know guys who have sat at the panel for 4000 hours? Well, that still beats being unemployed and/or working at Home Depot. Maybe he can still fly on the side. Use some of that $40,000 a year minimum salary to rent a plane once a month or so and keep his hours up. Good luck to your friend!!!!

 

[wingnutt]

good thoughts guys! ill pass them along to him.

the guy with 4000 hours wasnt complaining, but hes now flying a single engine for a 135 outfit, and hoping to get into twins in the next few months...talk about a step down

just for GP (General Purposes, for you civilians) the FE job pays about 10K additional in per diem, so i guess its more like 50K a year starting...oh, to be in such a quandry

...any more opinions out there? i see a few votes for the 208

 

[T-Gates]

Take the 727, you will gain quality experience in heavy, high-performance equipment. I'd sit sideways for a year or so if it meant a possible upgrade into the right seat in a heartbeat!

Good Luck!

--03M

 

[bobbysamd]

Panel Pilot

My first reaction was to fly the Caravan because it is turbine PIC time, the type of time that does not grow on trees. Then I read where it is only two hours a day at $30K (alright money for a flying job), while the panel paid $40K with more potential for advancement.

Your friend should take the panel job. Although it might take awhile, he will be well positioned to get the right seat of the 727. That kind of time definitely does not grow on trees. Far better experience than the 208. Not to mention the fact that he will be flying a classic airplane.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[metrodriver]

To take or not to take, that's the question. If this 727 job has a good future, take it. If it looks like it might be shaky, stay where you are. I had the same thing. Went to a 727 job, almost half a year later got furloughed. You start applying at other carriers, no 727 jobs because you are very low time on the plane and currently there are a lot of 72 guys with plenty of experience walking the street (that surprises me that this guy got hired anyway, but it probably depends on who you know). None of the regionals wanted to look at at us because we had no recent experience on the controls. I know guys that got hired back at some carrier to get furloughed again 3 month later. Quit the jobs they had then, and are now pulling unemployment because their old boss has hired new people and doesn't want them back.

 

[Redeye]

It depends entirely on the company offering the FE job. I find it hard to believe that any company with 727s is going to be growing so fast that upgrades would happen in a year. If that company furloughs, then s/he's out a decent flying job (re: the 208s)and those are real rare these days. My viewpoint is rather jaded - I'd choose stability in these unstable times and stick with the 208 job but going to sit sideways may be a good gamble in the long run, especially for a single person. The FE route was a kick in the crotch to my career but my timing wasn't very good. My advice is to be cautious. Learn a lot about the 727 company's financial state ie. debt on the books, cash in the bank, nature of business they have lined up, and if that looks OK, make the jump to the panel.

Just curious, though - who is the 727 operator in question?

 

[350DRIVER]

Very very easy answer, take the 27 FE position without a second thought regardless of who the operator is. It would be like being offered either a Mercedes or a Chevy Chevette.


c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Company A-PIC 208 time
Company B-FE time

If your friend wants to fly for another company down the road (NOT Co. A or B) he should stay int he 208 until he gets at least 1000 PIC turbine, which qualifies him for Jet Blue, SWA, etc.

A lot of organizations want ___ amount of fixed-wing PIC time.

If he wants to stay at Co. B, he should definitely go there.

Other considerations:

Does he need the extra money for whatever?
A lot of places won't interview you unless you have a current flying (Capt or FO) job, or so many hours/so many months. The FE time won't cut it for that requirement.
How stable is co. A & B?

Good luck to him!

Cliff
GRB

 

[skydiverdriver]

I would only take the FE position if he knew for sure it would lead to an upgrade down the road. I once worked for a large flight school, and we had a guy send a resume that had over 9000 hours FE time. He said it was almost worthless since everyone wanted sic or pic. I also heard some guys at ATA (I believe, if I got the name wrong, I'm sorry) were unable to upgrade since they didn't have enough pilot time, and had to quit, get other jobs, then apply again when the FE aircraft were retired. Not a good position to be in. I would make sure you qualify to be an FO before you go, if you go.

It would also help if you told us how much pic and total time this individual has right now. Honestly, it may sound great to fly a big, old airplane, but flight time is king, and FE time doesn't qualify. As the old saying goes, if you want a job flying, get a job flying. This is not to say that FE time isn't good experience, because it is, but I have 9000 hours of dispatching, and I feel the same way about that time. Good experience, but it helps little in getting a job. I say keep the stick time job, unless you can guarantee the FO upgrade. Good luck.

 

[skydiverdriver]

PS,
I have a friend who is an FE for a cargo carrier, and he comes to me all the time to keep him current. FE time and FE checkrides do not count for your BFR or your instrument currency. Just another thought to consider.

 

[FearlessFreep]

There are no guarantees. If the 208 job is a Fedex feeder than for the most part that is going to be pretty stable and a good place to weather out the current conditions in the job market.

I would at this point question the viability of a 727 FE position, unless of course it was with Fedex, UPS, DHL, and maybe Ryan(Emery Contract). Even the UPS thing is kinda shaky with the 72 at this point in time.

The Caravan time may be PIC turbine but on the marketplace it is a joke, it is not worth much and probably never will be. I know that it's not fair but that is the truth of the matter, at least as I have seen and experienced it. Someone stated that the 1000 PIC turbine will get an opportunity to apply at jetblue, well you also need 1000 in aircraft > 20,000 #. That sort of negates the importance of 208 time.

If this person has been in the 208 for a while they are probably at this point in time bored to tears, and really ripe for a change.

In short it comes to this, you've got a chance to get in jet aircraft, this might not last, but it is an opportunity. If you realize that you might be out of work before you even get in the cockpit or shortly thereafter and you can live with that , do it. If you need economical stability stay in the Caravan. If you choose the "Jet Job", remember as soon as you get laid off that 208 might will seem awfully appealing.

Remember anything can happen, you could either be furloughed from the 208 or have a rewarding career in the 727. You can't tell in this industry.
Who knows what the future will be, if you wait it out a better opportunity may present itself. In any case if you stay in the 208 you will be current - that should give you a leg up on the competition when things get better.

Just go have fun, that's what this is supposed to be all about.

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[wingnutt]

man, y'all have some pretty dam good suggestions. ive passed all this on, and it sounds like hes gonna stick with the caravan for a few more months and see if he can leave on good terms (ie; fill his contract instead of paying them off). that way if the 727 thing goes TU he can come back to the 208, should the need arise.

he dosent really care about the money (to a point) but dosent want to stall a healthy career...especially in this day and age.

FYI, the 208 is a UPS feeder, and the 727 is in fact the old Emery routes although not Ryan.

 

[CXAV8]

FE

Sat at the panel for a year and the airline folded. I learned alot, but the time spent was not well recieved by employers. In the corporate world I recieved little or no credit for that time. Try to get into something where your flying. Unless it's with a real major(Fedex, UPS). The 121 freight experience was the worst year of flying I've had. The key either way is to keep flying and feed you and your family. That's my 2 cents.

 

[skydiverdriver]

You didn't mention the part about the contract! I would look into going to another 208 operator. I know that Mountain Air Cargo has Caravans and FK-27's, and I heard they were having trouble finding Caravan pilots. After you fly the Caravan, you can transfer to the Fokker and get multi-turbine 121 time over 40,000 lbs. I honestly don't know if they are hiring, but it never hurts to ask. Good luck.