709 or Surrender Cert?

[JediNein]

Greetings,

I'm trying to become more familiar with the 709 process

1. If a pilot surrenders whatever certificate or rating in question, does that stop enforcement actions?

2. If a pilot successfully passes the 709 ride, does this stop the enforcement process, or is it just one stop in the investigation?

3. When does the pilot know the investigation is complete?

4. If the aircraft was a factor in whatever occurance/incident/accident that directed the FAA's attention to the pilot, but the pilot could not determine this in the preflight or in the course of ownership, will those items be held against the pilot after the 709?

Thanks much!
Jedi Nein

 

[Rick1128]

It has been my observation (backed up back FAA Order 8400.10 and 8700.10) that a 709 ride is usually given if there is a question on the pilot's compentency. And therefore it is usually THE enforcement action.

A. If you surrender your certificate then the action stops, as you will have to take all the writtens and rides over to get any new certificate.

B. If you pas then the process is over.

C. You will know after the ride. You either pass or fail.

D. It really depends on the situation. An Aviation Attorney will be of much more help here.

It sounds like ther is much more here than you are telling. I firmly suggest that you read the appropriate sections of Order 8700.10. The FAA usually only orders a 709 ride if there is a question on the airman's compentency anf that is based on accidents, incidents, personal obersations by an inspector (e.i. checkrides) and reports. There are strict procedures that the FAA must follow. I know of one pilot who got a 709 ride canceled because the inspector had only one report to base the order on. On the other hand his next checkride was a back busting MOTHER. But then he also passed it.

 

[avbug]

On the other hand his next checkride was a back busting MOTHER.

Mmmmmmmmmm...m-o-t-h-e-r.....

Er, that back busting part sounds pretty tough. It's the inverted ILS back course approaches that are the hard ones. It gets easier after that.

 

[jackotron]

a back busting MOTHER.

Sounds kind of hot

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I would suggest the Lawyer too. Who knows anymore with the feds. I question the actions of any agency that is recalling all pencils for redistribution.

-Jack

 

[Peanut gallery]

709 Ride

709 ride purely establishes that you can keep your certificates for now. The legal process that is going on will continue and is considered a separate issue. 709 ride is given when the administrative law process suspects that competence may be an issue.

 

[HangerRat]

If you surrender, I don't think you have to retake your written's. . . Just repass a practical test. . . I could be wrong and I have no regs here now. . . .

 

[JAFI]

Jedi,

First of all an Enforcement Action and a 44709 re-examination are seperate events that may be from the same accident/incident/event, but are not interlinked.

A 44709 can be called for at any time, period. Many do happen after a question of airman competency.

An Enforcement investigation is called for when there is a possible violation of the CFR's.

A 709 ride for an ATP certificate is over if the pilot no longer has an ATP certificate to be examined for. But, at the same time if an LOI (Letter Of Invistigation - usually with a return recipt requested) was sent there may still be an Investigation for CFR violations.

3. When does the pilot know the investigation is complete? ---

You can get a "No Action Letter" that states that no action will be taken.

When you get an LOI, the investigation is on going and you may be asked to respond.

If the investigation is over and you get a notice to go to court.

You can get a "Letter of Warning" or a "Letter of Correction".

4. If the aircraft was a factor in whatever occurance/incident/accident that directed the FAA's attention to the pilot, but the pilot could not determine this in the preflight or in the course of ownership, will those items be held against the pilot after the 709?

Again, the 709 has nothing to do with an Enforcement Action. The extent of a 709 is determined by the FSDO. So be professional.

You could still get the 709 but not have an Enforcement Action, have an EA but not a 709 or any combination. It all depends on what the case is.

JAFI

P.S. - If you surrender a certificate you DO have to take the writtens over, the oral exam and practical exam.

 

[JediNein]

Thanks guys!

 

[jetdriven]

you also may pay a civil penalty in lieu of any admission or finding of guilt. A legal bribe in a way.

get the 709 ride in a FSDO other than the one investigating you will help, I did that and, since they had no personal interest in the matter, it went relatively easy. Oral only. in fact.