61 vs 141

[meyers9163]

So I just found out my summer classes I had planned on taking I cannot due to a scholarship being changed. So now that I will be at college an entire year for my Senior year I was wondering what would you do if you could do it over again 141 or 61 and why? I want to make a career out of this and I am kind of excited now to be in Indiana for a another year plus due to I can get all the ratings just done at a local FBO instead of having to go to a flight school to do it fast. Any ways I have a lot of time and if needed I can get a small loan to pay for some ratings. Any ways so there is it.... if you can do it 61 or 141? Why and why not? Which route would be better and cheaper? Or is there a better/cheaper route?

 

[Joshrk22]

141 Schools have a set structure that they are required to follow, so these schools are approved by the FAA. 61 schools do not have this requirement. You can get your license and ratings earlier at a 141 school(35 hrs for private) than a 61 school(40), but this really doesnt matter because that national average for your private is significantly higher anyways. It's more a matter of preference, how much time and effort you are going to put in really. I'm guessing 141 schools have better equipment, but this is probably not always the case. Let's not get into the convo about which school puts out better pilots, because many of the pilots on here will tell you they have seen good and bad pilots out of both. Maybe someone else could fill ya in more than what I can.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

NO part 141 program can compete with a good controlled Part 61 custom designed
curriculum. The part 61 program will always provide more potential for learning. A part 61 program is as good as you and your instructor/mentor want it to be.


Here is an example of what is possible under Part 61.

The following is a basic plan of action for training:

1. Private
2. Then VFR Multi
3. Then multi FTD for 50 hours of instrument
4. Then single engine PIC XC combined with,
5. 50 hours of multi engine instrument training.
6. Then try to find someplace to get about 25 - 30 hours of tailwheel and acrobatic training. If not available locally, travel and stay a week to get it. Best airplane for this is the a Super Decathlon
7. Get more multi engine training for the instrument rating and IRA check ride.
8. Take your test for initial Commercial in the twin
9. Then get a single engine add-on
10. Then finish up the CFI ratings, Single, Multi, and CFI I.

 

[Joshrk22]

NO part 141 program can compete with a good controlled Part 61 custom designed
curriculum.

What are you saying? No matter what better pilots come out of a 141 school then a 61 school? That's not true. There are bad pilots and good pilots, doesn't matter where you go. Don't fall for the *CESSNA 182 with G1000 panel!* ads, go somewhere that's friendly, has decent equipment, and will work best with your schedule.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

In case that was misunderstood here is a revision to that post.

NO part 141 program can compete with a good controlled Part 61 custom designed
curriculum. The part 61 program will always provide more potential for learning. A part 61 program is as good as you and your instructor/mentor want it to be.

 

[Joshrk22]

:beer:

 

[meyers9163]

What about this

I was thinking my PPL is going to end up taking me 50 hours roughtly at a part 61 school. Of that 10 xc time would that count towards my requirement needed for the IR rating?

Any ways then after that I was thinking I'd get a multi endorsment at a local FBO they offer like 10 hours of one for about 2300 with check ride? Would those 10 hours count towards the 50 needed as well for the IR or no? I was thinking if it did then I'd have 20 hours taken care of.

Then after the multi endorsement go for an IR rating which you need 50 xc time PIC before you can start an instrument course or by the time you have completed the course and are going for the check ride you need that total of 50 xc time?

Any ways that's what i'm looking at right now and i'll get SE, ME, and then IR done and then build time for the comm rating? Any other ratings before the comm? I'm trying to pay as I go therefore no DEBT or student loans if possible. Any ways thanks for the replies keep them coming!

 

[RockbrigadePC1]

Multi comm then the single add-on.

Because that way you save money on not needing to rent a single complex.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

First off, there are only 5 Hrs of solo/pic X-C for the private certificate. But whatever there may be, it all counts towards the IRA.

Second, the multi is not an endorsement and that time counts toward the 250 hour commercial.

Third, you’ll have no problem getting the 50 hours of PIC X-C for the IRA.

Forth, just follow the plan of action I posted.
There are variations possible, but please don’t listen to others from the outside who do not know what they’re talking about. Get a CFI mentor who can help you.

Fifth, as far as money goes, this can not be done on the cheap or as a pay as you go. That simply will not work here because you’ll be at this your whole life dreaming the dream instead of ever having a chance to live the dream. You are just going to have to borrow the money some way if you don’t have it. The cheapest way is to borrow the money now so you can work as a CFI in school. That is cheapest in the long run. Otherwise you’ll pay as you go and flip burgers to get each hour. And you can't log burger flipping!

 

[meyers9163]

Any thought on the cost for the above steps 2-10? Right now i'm looking at 5k for my PPL so I'd like to pay out of pocket for the Multi VFR as well and even the 50 hours of the instrument. After that it would appear to be the bulk of the courses you have laid out? Any suggestions on what I should estimate for cost?

 

[Joshrk22]

You can look around spending $30,000 for your Private - Commericial ME. Throw in your CFI - add $3,000, your CFII - $1,250 and your MEI - $1,500. This in all will put you around $36,000 or so, depending on where you are located.

 

[meyers9163]

Hmm I dunno about 30k. I am asking to compare. I was given a quote of 16k for taking me from 60 TT after ppl through IR, Single Comm, CFI, CFII. I realize that you have to add Multi add on and maybe if I can work it get some multi time and do a multi comm instead of single. Any ways I realize I'll lack the time but would this be a possible route going? Ir, Single Comm, CFI, CFII roughly 204 (144 hours).

 

[Joshrk22]

Well these numbers are based on local FBO, its $38/hr of instruction and then for the aircraft its $98/hr for a 182 and $168/hr for the Duchess(ME). This is including all your groundschool, Medicals, Written and Flight Exams. Where I'm at right now, it's a club($500 deposit, $225 yearly), $20/hr for instruction and then $15 for the Taylorcraft and $28 and $25 for the Pipers. This is a significantly lower cost then most FBO's, I'm still not sure what I'm going to do for my ME rating yet, but I have the Private, Instrument, Commericial, and CFI pretty well covered. Maybe look at joining a club, this is will help lower costs a lot.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The Total Price Tag

I hate to be the one to tell you this but with the 50-100 hour multiengine emphasis, including the tailwheel/acrobatic time, this program would realistically be around 50k to maybe even 60k. Maybe when you get around 200-hours your FBO school will allow you to start training from the right seat in prep for the CFI at the same time you’re preparing for the commercial. That could save 5k off the price.

You see there is a cheaper way but that would be to have an emphasis on single engine. Unfortunately what is needed to even get a job instructing in the FBO’s twin is probably 50-hours of multiengine or maybe even more. That’s the expensive part, getting the multiengine time.

 

[Joshrk22]

I wouldn't worry too much about the tailwheel and aerobatics ratings at this time....maybe later on down the road. Some FBO's sell block-time, which will lower the price. Make some friends that have a multiengine aircraft. Maybe work for the FBO in exchange for the airplane for an hour for free. There's really no way to do it without getting a loan.

 

[Joshrk22]

1. Get your private.
2. Get your Multi-engine Addon
3. Get your Instrument Rating in a Multi.
4. Get your Commercial in a Multi and go from there.

That's going to be about the cheapest way; minimizing flight time, checkrides, etc.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

True, tailwheel/acro time is not that important for getting the ratings but it is for mastery of piloting. If you don't get it during your 250-hour program then I would guess that you'll never get it.

Is tailwheel and acro important, more so than most everyone thinks. I don't want to really get into that here now, but if you can figure out how to include the TW/Acro into your program you will never regret it.

 

[Catbert]

Fifth, as far as money goes, this can not be done on the cheap or as a pay as you go. That simply will not work here because you’ll be at this your whole life dreaming the dream instead of ever having a chance to live the dream.

That is a fact, Jack. Avoid this route at all costs. I'm a CFI now, but I spent eight years in various dead-end jobs, paying as I went. Not the way to go! Once you get the CFI, things begin to accelerate nicely. Get to that point as quickly as possible.

 

[meyers9163]

Yeah getting to the CFI will be a nice day. Obvioulsy I'm far away from that point but lets face it I have a over a year and 3 months left of college so I do have a little while. I just am trying to make the mistake of taking that 50k or more loan out like some of these academies do. I mean i realize the importance of Multi time and how ATP provides it and so do a few otehrs but I also know other ways of getting it. One of my friends is telling me get the CFI/CFII/MEI and then he will help me get on where he did his instructing where they have a charter op. So that'd be awesome.

Any ways he also had told me his way of going about his ratings and I was curious. He said it was due to not over lapping in the PTS and it worked for him and all his former students, just curious on thoughts.....


PPL, IFR with multi engine add-on, time build in a single..do the comm-multi, then comm single add-on then the CFII, MEI, and CFI

Guess he has reasons for this but i dunno. If it works it works however....

 

[Joshrk22]

PPL, IFR with multi engine add-on, time build in a single..do the comm-multi, then comm single add-on then the CFII, MEI, and CFI

I can't remember correctly but if you get your comm-multi you can't build it in a single like you have stated. You have to build 250 hours in ME aircraft. Everything else looks fine though! Goodluck my friend.