"6000 airline jobs...created in 2002"

[kilomike]

Enigma,
Well said. Agreed, there was some good information such as addresses to send resumes, etc.

What I am fed up with is the feeding of more wannabes into the industry and flooding the market with too many pilots. These press releases and things like Be a Pilot.com advertising in Parade magazine about a pilot shortage has got to stop.

kilomike

 

[may]

darby

Great posts and reply's from Enigma and especialy publisher

the rest of you will soon learn after a thousand or more hours. live and learn.

 

[bobbysamd]

Slander, fraud and Kit Darby

According to my Black's Law Dictionary (Abridged 6th Edition), slander is defined as "[t]he speaking of base and defamatory words tending to prejudice another in his reputation, community standing, office, trade, business, or means of livelihood . . . [T]he essential elements of slander are: (a) a false and defamatory statement concerning another; (b) an unprivileged communication to a third party; (c) fault amounting at least to negligence on the part of the publisher (not you, Pub ); and (d) either actionability of the statement irrespective of harm or the existence of special harm caused by the publication." Restatement, second, Torts § 558.

The Restatement is a treatise. A treatise is a written work that espouses on a specific area of law and is designed to clarify and persuade.

Basically, slander is an intentional tort and the person who was slandered has to prove that he/she was damaged. The truth is a complete defense to fraud. Slander is spoken and libel is written (published).

Fraud, according to my Black's, is "an intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of inducing another in reliance upon it to part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right . . . ."

I indeed realize this is not the Torts Message Board, but I wanted to jump in because I had the legal dictionary handy.

As much as I dislike Kit stemming from the pilot shortage sophistries he spread during his FAPA days, and, again, while I am not a lawyer licensed to practice law, Kit's research that appears to support a pilot shortage is not fraud in the legal sense. You have to satisfy each element to make a case for fraud. For one thing, we don't know that his distortions about hiring have been intentional.

You bet your a$$ that Kit's claims are misleading. Kit, back then as Mr. FAPA, and now, does a dynamite job of selling dreams. Everyone has dreams. I sure did. A reality check now and then helps balance those dreams and aids objectivity. My experience has been that a good dose of objectivity and reality are keys to deciding to pursue a professional flying career. Of course, anyone can always learn to fly and enjoy it for it's own sake.

I appreciate Enigma's opinion that the oversupply of pilots has kept wages down. But, consider this passage from page 248 of Flying the Line: "In the face of an almost constant oversupply of pilots, ALPA has somehow managed to protect the minority of pilots from the 'iron law of wages.'" (emphasis added). This book was written in 1982. Food for thought. Since then, airlines have demanded and received givebacks from pilots, and pay has been affected. The author does not provide statistics to prove a pilot oversupply, but his observations recognize that historically there has not been a pilot shortage.

In all fairness, Kit provided useful contact information as Mr. FAPA, and apparently still does as AIR, Inc. The books he sold me while he was FAPA helped me. I was a big FAPA consumer thirteen years ago. But, even though Kit has apparently backed off saying there is, or will be, a "pilot shortage," people should be careful about what they discern from reading between the lines. There is NO pilot shortage!

Maybe what I should say is we should all wish there was a pilot shortage. Then, everyone could realize their dreams.

 

[publisher]

Wade in

I really do not think frankly that Kit or any of the others pronouncements are influential enough to get people who are on the side lines to get into flying for a living.

The fact is that number one, we all liked, loved, or found flying an aircraft to be really cool (sic).

Two, the people at the top of that profession make a good deal of money.

Because this board is very airline oriented, we tend to look at everything in that context. The fact is that there are a ton of flying jobs that you can make a respectable living at that are way short of food stamps.

As I have stated before, I believe that the natural process of union influence lead to the top senior positions paying out of context wages with the whole and genereally sacrifice the wages of the new people to pay the wages of the senior. Hence when you have a bunch of people seeking the golden egg, heh, there are a bunch at the lower scale looking up and wanting to be there.

This is not truely a supply demand thing. Look at the lotto. For $7.0m we have X number of people play. Now who would not think that would be a fair return on a $1. Yet, we have $300m and the number of players triples.

While I certainly do not make a habit of defending Kit Darby, he did not make the game or the rules. When a UAL captain at the very top can make $345,000 and the guy on the bottom make $34,500 for doing the same job for a company, things are out of whack.

 

[Caveman]

"I really do not think frankly that Kit or any of the others pronouncements are influential enough to get people who are on the side lines to get into flying for a living."

Publisher,

I'm not sure that I agree with you on this point. A ton of flight schools quote Darby and Air, Inc regarding hiring predictions. I'm not too far removed from flight instructing and one of the biggest concerns from parents (i.e. those who really fund flight training) was whether or not junior was actually going to be able to make a living flying airplanes. The rosy future predicted by 'experts' like Darby helped make more than one sale I assure you.

The other problem I have with Air, Inc predicting hiring numbers is that it's selfserving and IMHO a conflict of interest. His profits are directly linked to the number of folks using his service. If he doesn't predict a rosy picture no one will pony up the $175 to get his assistance. On the other hand a case could be made that if he predicted doom and gloom you would now really need his services to give you that competitive edge. At least the latter scenario is more indicative of the short term future.

Personally, I think his services and product are way over-rated and way overpriced. Probably the best thing he produces is the magazine. I have gotten more useful info from there than anything esle of his I've seen. Hey, caveat emptor. I think he has done a wonderful job of selling refridgerators to eskimos. He's not dishonest, just a slick salesman and like most salesman just slightly misleading. I'm sure he'll tell you the truth if you know which questions to ask. For example, "O.K. UAL will be at the job fair but will they actually be hiring in the near future?"

I also think that the explosion of the internet and all the info availble either directly from the companies themselves or from boards like this one have rendered his service impotent. There isn't anything he provides that you can't get eslewhere. Is it worth $175 for someone else to do the research for you? To each his own.

 

[bobbysamd]

Kit the Pied Piper

I disagree. I feel that Kit's seductive publications and misleading, distorted statistics wield more influence than one might think.

Once again, Kit sells dreams. In all honesty, I haven't read his AIR, Inc. pubs, but I was a Kit (FAPA) devotee for years before and through 1994. He ran a real scheme to save FAPA from ruin in the late '80s. Cry "pilot shortage" and contrive statistics that back it up. Get the media to swallow, unchallanged. Then advertise FAPA in pilot mags airmed at the masses. Voila! People who are private pilots and who had just wanted to be private pilots now think career, and Kit is their Pied Piper. FAPA membership revenues skyrocket and he saves his (Lou Smith's) "company." His magazine, Career Pilot, delivered what was previously esoteric information to the unwashed pilot masses. He made it sound so EASY! And his advertisers. Flight schools. Type schools. They must have made a mint. In a way, I am grateful because it created a job for me in aviation as an instructor. But, the reality of it all, that there was no pilot shortage, probably stopped me from advancing. Kit was, and may still be, irresponsible for not disclosing both sides of aviation career building.

I do second Pub that there are good flying jobs outside of airlines. People don't think along those lines enough. Although a lot of us look askance when a fed comes to you and says he's here to help, the FAA does offer some great flying jobs, with full government benies. I use the FAA only as an example. Once again, blame Kit. He sells airline dreams all too well.

I'll get off my soapbox.

 

[mar]

Bravo!

I don't have anything to offer to the discussion I just wanted to offer my congratulations on one of the most intelligent, criticial, substantive debates I've ever read on this board.

Great job everyone! Of course the whole thing is missing one person to make it perfectly balanced: Mr. Darby.

 

[publisher]

soap box

Now Bobby I am smart enough to know that you are going to stay on your soap box as long as there is a board here.

For the most part, the stats that Kit puts out are probably near right. I think he says something about tracking 268 airlines and here are the numbers. Well, there are only 5 majors and a few others like AirTran and Jetblue, so the rest all count too except in the minds of some.

Perhaps he has more clout than I am giving him credit for. In the big scheme of things, I don't think so. Think of professional sports. A good many kids want to be one and then the process begins and they get weeded out. We all know that very few make it but many try.

People ask me all the time why we do not put more of the negatives and more of the issues in my magazine. The answer is not I want more pilots so we can get more members, it is the simple belief that this is a great industry that is tarnished enough by others.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Air, Inc. product useful? you bet!
overpriced? Perhaps, but it's the best info available out there consolidated in one place (that I have been able to find, anyway). I take a little issue with the price of the books, but otherwise it's about the best 99 bucks I've invested in my future thus far. The message I took away from the Dallas convention is that there AREN"T that many jobs out there and that I have to work that much harder to be marketable (and of course, buy all the air inc products). I was called for an interview and subsequently hired directly by a company that attended the Dallas fair. I attribute the initial call to me meeting with the HR rep at the convention, so, I figure that was time and money well-spent too. It's a free country, free market, Kit has a product and a market for that product. Naturally, he is going to market that product in such a way as to attract more business. I think anyone spending the coin on that product is under no false illusions. Nobody is twisting your arm to join Air, inc. I'm just happy I don't see Kit on here plugging his product in this forum daily.

 

[publisher]

last point

Let me make one last point:

There is nothing more important than meeting face to face the recruiters, chief pilots, humman resouce people, etc., at a job fair. That is true whether it is at Kit's job fair, AEPS job fair, or at the college job fairs held at the major aviation universities.

Let me repeat that. NOTHING MORE IMPORTANT.

If the company you are interested in is going to be at one of these, go there! My other point is that if Comair is that company, you could have met them at AS3 with AEPS for $20 versus $175 for Kit in LA.

In the end, it is not Kit's prodiucts, not Kit's interview prep, it is that face to face one on one time for you to present yourself.