500 feet vertical separation between aircraft?

[mudkow60]

Quick question.


Long-short of the story is that approach vectored a heavy (think 727 or someting bigger than me) over my helo (H-3). It was night, and dark. When questioned, I was told, very casually, that he is at 2200 feet (while I was at 1700 feet). Is this the normal vertical separation for vectored traffic (500 feet), and if it is, why did I have to "pimp" ATC for the advisory?

Thanks.

 

[Stepclimb]

Vfr?

I think we need a little more info before we break out the "jump to conclusions" mat.....
Were you operating under VFR? In what type of airspace were you operating? I'm assuming the 727 was operating under IFR. Were you level at 1700 feet? Were you talking to the controller at the time you noticed the 727 or did you contact the facility after he had passed? If so, were you on a discreet code (i.e.: not 1200). Did the controller point out the 727 traffic to you? Did you tell him/her you had the 727 in sight? If the answers are yes, then it seems reasonable that you are using see & avoid and that the 727 should have descended no lower than 2200.
I'll look up 7110.65 here in a little while, but I think that 1000 ft vertical separation only applies when both aircraft are operating under IFR.

 

[Lead Sled]

What about the classic VFR - IFR separation scenario? VFR westbound on an airway at 6,500' and IFR eastbound at 7,000'? There's your 500' separation. Throw in a bit of sloppy flying (+/- a couple of hundred feet or so) and you can see how things can get real interesting. See and avoid is still the first rule of traffic separation whether you're VFR or IFR.

'Sled

 

[Stepclimb]

More info...

This is from 7110.65 (ATC procedures)​

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7-7-3. SEPARATION
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Separate VFR aircraft from VFR/IFR aircraft by any one of the following:
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a. Visual separation, as specified in para 7-2-1, Visual Separation, para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and para 7-6-7, Sequencing.
​

NOTE-
Issue wake turbulence cautionary advisories in accordance with para 2-1-20, Wake Turbulence Cautionary Advisories.
​

b. 500 feet vertical separation. (emphasis added)
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c. Target resolution when using broadband radar systems. The application of target resolutions at locations not using broadband radar will be individually approved by the Program Director for Air Traffic Planning and Procedures, ATP-1.
​

NOTE-
Apply the provisions of para 5-5-4, Minima, subparas d and e when wake turbulence separation is required.
​

[size=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Visual Separation, Para 7-2-1.[/size]
​

2-1-21. TRAFFIC ADVISORIES
Unless an aircraft is operating within Class A airspace or omission is requested by the pilot, issue traffic advisories to all aircraft (IFR or VFR) on your frequency when, in your judgment, their proximity may diminish to less than the applicable separation minima. Where no separation minima applies, such as for VFR aircraft outside of Class B/Class C airspace, or a TRSA, issue traffic advisories to those aircraft on your frequency when in your judgment their proximity warrants it (emphasis added). Provide this service as follows:

a. To radar identified aircraft:


​

1. Azimuth from aircraft in terms of the 12-hour clock, or


2. When rapidly maneuvering aircraft prevent accurate issuance of traffic as in 1 above, specify the direction from an aircraft's position in terms of the eight cardinal compass points (N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, and NW). This method shall be terminated at the pilot's request.

3. Distance from aircraft in miles.

4. Direction in which traffic is proceeding and/or relative movement of traffic.


​

Depending on the type of airspace you were in at the time, there might not be any separation minima at all between VFR and IFR aircraft.


In regards to wake turbulence advisories......I don't know if a 727 qualifies as a "heavy", but here's the reg.....


2-1-20. WAKE TURBULENCE CAUTIONARY ADVISORIES

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a. Issue wake turbulence cautionary advisories and the position, altitude if known, and direction of flight of the heavy jet or B757 to:


[size=-2]REFERENCE-
AC 90-23, Aircraft Wake Turbulence, Pilot Responsibility, Para 12.[/size]

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1. TERMINAL. VFR aircraft not being radar vectored but are behind heavy jets or B757s.


2. IFR aircraft that accept a visual approach or visual separation.

​

​

[size=-2]REFERENCE-

FAAO 7110.65, Visual Approach, Para 7-4-1.[/size]

3. TERMINAL. VFR arriving aircraft that have previously been radar vectored and the vectoring has been discontinued.

​

​

b. Issue cautionary information to any aircraft if in your opinion, wake turbulence may have an adverse effect on it. When traffic is known to be a heavy aircraft, include the word heavy in the description.


NOTE-
Wake turbulence may be encountered by aircraft in flight as well as when operating on the airport movement area. Because wake turbulence is unpredictable, the controller is not responsible for anticipating its existence or effect. Although not mandatory during ground operations, controllers may use the words jet blast, propwash, or rotorwash, in lieu of wake turbulence, when issuing a caution advisory.

​

Hope this helps.....

​

​

 

[Flyin Tony]

I had one of them cessnas with the PT6 on the front of it pass of me like 50 feet above me, it was fun.

 

[Thedude]

Are you out of LAS??

 

[mudkow60]

VFR conditons (think ATC said remain VMC). He had me climb to 1700 feet and I was level there, on a vectored heading assigned by ATC (with a discrete xsponder code in). The heavy was being vectored on an approach into the airport.

It just seems odd that I did not get a traffic call by ATC; I had to watch the heavy do a turn, and head right for me, ALL lights glaring directly at me on a DARK night before I had to call and ask if he knew we were gonna cross under the aircraft.

 

[Snoopy58]

ATC rules don't really change from day to night to dark night... he needs to have the 500' between aircraft, and that's what he had. His life is good. Nerves aside, so is yours. Would it be nice to get the traffic call earlier, sure. Depending on the controller's scope and workload and rules, it may not always happen... he sees things you don't see, and not everything that looks worrisome to us in the cockpit necessarily is all that bad when seen on the "God's eye view" of a radar scope with altitudes and vectors and all the magic they have available.

A lot of bright lights pointed right at you can look pretty imposing, but if you're exactly at his 12 oclock and he's at anything besides your 12 or 6 oclock, he's going to pass over where you are now, not over where you'll be when he gets there... ie he'll go behind you. And if the controller sees that trend, he may not need to even call the traffic to you, unnerving though all those landing lights can be on a dark night.

 

[TurboS7]

Thought you were going to talk about the future, 500 foot RVSM.

 

[mudkow60]

Um... ok.

I appreciate your imput. Just kinda' sounded like you made me out to be a dummy. Might be taking it wrong though.