4 year+ Regional F.O.s -- lifestyle changes

[Mike man]

Geez,
I am completely sick of hearing people say they learn so much from instructing, that's a bunch of nonsense...

[font=&quot]Ummm...if you aren't learning anything from being a CFI you are doing it wrong. I'd wager that in the 3 years I was a CFI my student taught tons of stuff. Not only about flying but about perspective, attitude (not in the A/C), personality, etc. PPL student are the most fun--sort of--teaching someone how to fly an airplane is a pretty cool thing. The excitement and nervousness of the first solo then the first x-country, first solo x-country, first written test, first checkride...you are setting their habit patterns for the entire future of their flying career.

Suck it up, teach with a better attitude, and start looking for things your students can teach you...with 750 hours you will most likely be out of there this fall flying something bigger and better.[/font]

 

[boxjockey]

Fly4ever brings up a very valuable point that all people currently instructing should pay close attention to. One of the most important things you will learn as an instructor is how to interact with people in a myriad of situations. I instructed for three years, flew freight for a year, and now am fortunate enough to be with a great airline. I can tell you this. Anyone can fly an airplane, but not everyone can deal with a toolbox of a captain for a 25 hour four day trip. The people skills I learned while instructing is probably the thing I appreciate the most from my experiences. Sorry for the thread hijack again.

I'm closing in on second year FO, and by working a high time line, I will gross $40k plus this year. If you live within your means, this is plenty to live on until that upgrade comes around.

box

 

[five-alive]

Fly4ever brings up a very valuable point that all people currently instructing should pay close attention to. One of the most important things you will learn as an instructor is how to interact with people in a myriad of situations. I instructed for three years, flew freight for a year, and now am fortunate enough to be with a great airline. I can tell you this. Anyone can fly an airplane, but not everyone can deal with a toolbox of a captain for a 25 hour four day trip. The people skills I learned while instructing is probably the thing I appreciate the most from my experiences. Sorry for the thread hijack again.

I'm closing in on second year FO, and by working a high time line, I will gross $40k plus this year. If you live within your means, this is plenty to live on until that upgrade comes around.

box

You work for XJET, right? Not sure how that is possible. The most you can work is 1000 hours a year and at 1st year $22/hr thats $22000. Ok you get maybe $5000 per diem and maybe get over 100 credit a few months still nowhere near $40000 for a first year.

 

[Bluto]

Geez,
I am completely sick of hearing people say they learn so much from instructing, that's a bunch of nonsense
Flying demands physical skill...and I feel like I'm nowhere near as sharp as when I finished my CFII

I'm going to be blunt. I think that's pathetic. At 750 hours, if your flying skills are suffering because you're a CFI, you are probably a pathetic instructor and at best a mediocre pilot. I've never encountered a CFI with such a poor attitude. For your student's sake, I suggest you quit CFI'ing and go tow banners for a while. That'll really hone your flagging flying skills.

It's not the shiny jet syndrome why most guys want to get to thenext level it's the challenge.

Assuming you ever sneak through an interview and get hired by an airline with your attitude, you are in for a seriously rude awakening. You think flying for a regional is physically challenging or exciting? Dude, an airplane is an airplane. If you don't enjoy interacting with people you're better off finding a single pilot cargo gig for the rest of your career. Flight instructing can be tedious and frustrating after a few years, but if you aren't learning from it and improving as a pilot you honestly should quit. You're not doing anyone any favors by sticking around.

 

[BoilerUP]

You work for XJET, right? Not sure how that is possible. The most you can work is 1000 hours a year and at 1st year $22/hr thats $22000. Ok you get maybe $5000 per diem and maybe get over 100 credit a few months still nowhere near $40000 for a first year.

I think he meant to say he IS a second year FO, getting ready to finish his second year.

 

[fly4ever]

Mike, Box & Bluto,

You said it better than I did. Thanks for the additional comments.


shon7,

Thanks for your patience.

Fly

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think he meant to say he IS a second year FO, getting ready to finish his second year.

No, he is about to start his 2nd year...and make 2nd year pay.

-Neal

 

[BoilerUP]

Well I recieved the copy of the new XJT contract from you, Neal...but even with the new improvements, I wouldn't have imagined a 1st year FO could gross around 40K!

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Well I recieved the copy of the new XJT contract from you, Neal...but even with the new improvements, I wouldn't have imagined a 1st year FO could gross around 40K!

I think he goes to 2nd year pay fairly soon, so it would be a combination of 1st and 2nd year pay. I'm not sure if he is figuring in about $5000 in tax-free per diem. Either way, I think if a pilot knows how to work the contract and the rules, it could easily be done, especially if he bids to fly with line check-airman and then gets displaced off his trip (and then picks up a new trip as add-pay). Smart pilots know how to work the contract to their advantage and increase soft time. Our new leg by leg segment pay system is a big help as well. Put it this way, I will have about 114 hours of pay this month but I am not going to fly anywhere near that amount.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

You work for XJET, right? Not sure how that is possible. The most you can work is 1000 hours a year and at 1st year $22/hr thats $22000. Ok you get maybe $5000 per diem and maybe get over 100 credit a few months still nowhere near $40000 for a first year.

Just because all you can fly is 1000 hours per year doesn't mean that you will only be paid that amount. Most pilots at XJT fly around 750-800 hours per year but are paid roughly 1100 hours. The savvy pilots can fly around 900 hours per year and are paid roughly 1200 to 1300 hours. FO's can really clean up do to our displacement rules when you bid trips that have check airmen on them. Remember, you might fly a trip scheduled for 20 hours but really only fly 18 hours during that trip but get paid for 22 hours due to our leg by leg pay system. So now you've flown 18 but gotten paid for 22. Soft time (pay for hours that you havent actually flown is the key here). One can also call in sick for a 20 hour trip and be paid 20 hours for not even flying at all. One is also paid 20 hours for a 4-day trip while sitting recurrent ground school since we do ground school on days where we are supposed to fly. Flights are also cancelled all the time...but we get paid either way. Thus....if someone wants to push it up to close to 1000 hours, chances are they will have well over 1200 or 1300 hours of credit for the year. At a 2nd year rate of $32/hour, $40k is easily possible, especially if you factor in per diem.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Geez,
I am completely sick of hearing people say they learn so much from instructing, that's a bunch of nonsense
Flying demands physical skill, and I can't remember the last time I had a chance to fly an airplane down to minimums............I'm currnetly stuck w/ a bunch of students working on their PPL, and I feel like I'm nowhere near as sharp as when I finished my CFII.........It's not the shiny jet syndrome why most guys want to get to thenext level it's the challenge.

Is this flamebait? If not, that is a pretty sad attitude towards the position of being a professional flight instructor. Flying demands a physical skill to some degree but largely what we do at the airlines involves more system management and crew resource management - NOT physical skill.

If your instrument skills aren't sharp, ask your boss to let you go shoot approaches for an hour on his dime. But given what you've said in your post (this may or may not be the case), you are clearly doing your clients a disservice. Perhaps you should go build time another way...like traffic watch or pipeline patrol.

I absolutely learned a lot from flight instructing...both from teaching as well as interacting with all sorts of people from all walks of life in a confined space. Guess what? Both of those situations pop up in the airline world - teaching...and dealing with random people in a cockpit.

-Neal

 

[nimtz]

At a 2nd year rate of $32/hour, $40k is easily possible, especially if you factor in per diem.

-Neal

Please don't! As I'm sure you know per diem is found under the Expenses Part of the Contract, not Compensation. Nothing makes me sicker then when I hear some FO say "Yeah I needed to pick-up this trip to make up for the per diem I lost because of a few turns getting canceled."

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Please don't! As I'm sure you know per diem is found under the Expenses Part of the Contract, not Compensation. Nothing makes me sicker then when I hear some FO say "Yeah I needed to pick-up this trip to make up for the per diem I lost because of a few turns getting canceled."

That is why I said "if" you factor in per diem. I personally don't and have never advised anyone to consider per diem as income because it isn't...it is reimbursement for expenses incurred while working. Hopefully that clears my viewpoint up on this subject.

-Neal

 

[Dodge]

Nothing makes me sicker than hearing some captain who spent a whopping 18 months as an FO at XJ in 96-98 say that they are running short on cash each month. And anyone who says that they are picking up a trip for per diem is an idiot. The only reason I brought it up is that at XJ, FO's will get around 450/mo in perdiem while a reserve captain will get around $200.

 

[CurlyD777]

The people skills I learned while instructing is probably the thing I appreciate the most from my experiences.

Definatly my position as well. Having to put up with people with all kinds of backgrounds, ego's, and "physical" flying abilities wont go away in the airlines, so experiancing these array of people CFI'n goes so far with FO'n.

Last part since this is supposed to be about 4 year FO's and QOL for them, anyone can be in the airlines, and people that stuck it out for 4 years now and are still happy are people that are happy in the first place. The other's that have been in the airlines for 3 months and are unhappy, are unhappy to begin with. That wont ever change, so if you are into complaining and whining, starting a new job with the airlines wont make your life any better.

C.

 

[boxjockey]

I guess I should clear that up, since there seems to be some confusion. I have been at XJT for 15 months, and am already on second year pay. I do include perdiem in my pay for the simple fact that if I work an office job, and go eat lunch at McD's, I have to pay for that out of my salary. This is no different than working for the airlines. In fact, I typically have more food choices than the average american anyway. I also pack snacks to bring with me, so no need to try the "packing your lunch" argument.

box

 

[DetoXJ]

A senior Saab FO at Mesaba, 6 years, can make almost what a reserve captain, 6 years, makes if you factor in per diem.

Bottom line, cut things out so you spend less than you take in.

A 6 Year Mesaba FO has to average 110 hours per month just to make Saab Captain reserve pay. Very few Mesaba FO's are making Saab reserve captain pay.

 

[Thedude]

I'm going to be blunt. I think that's pathetic. At 750 hours, if your flying skills are suffering because you're a CFI, you are probably a pathetic instructor and at best a mediocre pilot. I've never encountered a CFI with such a poor attitude. For your student's sake, I suggest you quit CFI'ing and go tow banners for a while. That'll really hone your flagging flying skills.

Assuming you ever sneak through an interview and get hired by an airline with your attitude, you are in for a seriously rude awakening. You think flying for a regional is physically challenging or exciting? Dude, an airplane is an airplane. If you don't enjoy interacting with people you're better off finding a single pilot cargo gig for the rest of your career. Flight instructing can be tedious and frustrating after a few years, but if you aren't learning from it and improving as a pilot you honestly should quit. You're not doing anyone any favors by sticking around.

I have to disagree with you. Ones flying skills to go down the tubes when you are an instructor. How often, as an instructor, do you acutally maniuplate the controls. Not very often with a instrument or commerical student.
I can also understand the guy's attitude. It sounds like he is suffering from burnout. I know exaclty what that is like, after having worked for a 141 pilot factory. I flew for about 8 hrs a day 6 days a week. After about 10 months of that and barely being able to make ends meet I was starting to suffer from burnout myself. So I understand.
When I flew for the commuters it was challenging and exciting. But then again we didnt have an autopilot in the Metro and about half the cities we went to were just outside of radar coverage. So eight legs a day and half of them were full approaches makes for a long, exhausting but yet challenging day. Not to metion when I flew freight in the Metro and I was single pilot. I will say my skills have degraded since I no longer fly for the commuters but the 727 is demanding in a different way.
So, I hope I have knocked you off of your RJ high horse and when you get a couple of thousand more hours and make captain...you'll see things a little differently.

 

[Bluto]

I have to disagree with you. Ones flying skills to go down the tubes when you are an instructor. How often, as an instructor, do you acutally maniuplate the controls. Not very often with a instrument or commerical student....

If you haven't learned how to physically manipulate the controls by the time you're a CFI you'll probably never learn it. Watching and more importantly teaching someone while they fly approaches, perform maneuvers, talk on the radio, do landings and pretty much everything else, will almost certainly improve your flying skills. I say 'almost' because poor instructors have the ability to not only fail to teach their students, but in addition to fail to learn from them. I stand by my previous statement. I will say, however, that whatever you're doing, if it's not hard IFR hand-flying, it takes time to spool up to that level of proficiency. Blaming instructing for waning skills shows a lack of responsibility as far as I'm concerned. Most instructors have access to at the very least a simulator, if not an airplane and safety pilot to go out and knock the cobwebs off.

So, I hope I have knocked you off of your RJ high horse and when you get a couple of thousand more hours and make captain...you'll see things a little differently.

RJ high horse? I don't really see where you got that. I flew my share of 8-leg days on the Brasilia, but I don't pretend to be an expert on the matter. If your goal was to change my opinion on the value of flight instructing, consider yourself a failure, Captain.

 

[Bluto]

after having worked for a 141 pilot factory. I flew for about 8 hrs a day 6 days a week.

I can see how a "factory worker" could fail to understand the value of flight instructing.