4/3 ???

[guido411]

Was going to put this in the last FLOPS thread but it has turned into another union discussion, which is neither here nor there. I know this is only talk and may be a moot point in a month but I'm just looking for somebody to explain to me the viability of a 4/3 or reserve schedule. I do not have a management or finance degree so maybe I've missed something. Doesn't this basically double our airline costs? We have everybody on a 15 day schedule then move them to a 7 day schedule, which would MORE than double the airline days, right? Is this in anybody's best interest? I know there was mention of the Hawkers (possibly other aircraft) being on a 3 or 4 day mx schedule so aligning the pilots with that is being studied. Has anybody had experience with this? Has anyone been on an aircraft for 8 days and had it go into scheduled mx twice? Also wonder if a pay raise will be talked about if this takes place since we'll all be working the same number of days for fewer days off.

I'm getting a little faklempt, so please, tawk amongst yourselves.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Was going to put this in the last FLOPS thread but it has turned into another union discussion, which is neither here nor there. I know this is only talk and may be a moot point in a month but I'm just looking for somebody to explain to me the viability of a 4/3 or reserve schedule. I do not have a management or finance degree so maybe I've missed something. Doesn't this basically double our airline costs? We have everybody on a 15 day schedule then move them to a 7 day schedule, which would MORE than double the airline days, right? Is this in anybody's best interest? I know there was mention of the Hawkers (possibly other aircraft) being on a 3 or 4 day mx schedule so aligning the pilots with that is being studied. Has anybody had experience with this? Has anyone been on an aircraft for 8 days and had it go into scheduled mx twice? Also wonder if a pay raise will be talked about if this takes place since we'll all be working the same number of days for fewer days off.

I'm getting a little faklempt, so please, tawk amongst yourselves.

Ah yes, but the airline costs can be mitigated by forcing everyone to a domicile that is either a hub airport or a MX base.

 

[HSDriver]

4/3

I'm sure you'll hear more about this and other little gems they have cooked up in the upcoming FEB7 meeting.

 

[guido411]

Since Flight Options does not have jump seat arrangements and the cost of tickets alone will increase by more than and order of 10, the idea will not last.

Let's hope this is the case. It seemed obvious to me that the reason an airline can do it is they don't have to PAY for their seats. As for making everybody fly out of a hub or mx base. . .sh!t. Can't see it being THAT drastic but the way things have been going lately. . .

Now what about 7/7? I know, it's a far fetched dream right now. But looking at it from a logistics and finance perspective, doesn't this make sense? If any CS guys read this please re-explain your travel arrangements. But it's my understanding that CS commutes all pilots on Monday-Thursday. You either work a Thursday to Wednesday, or a Tuesday to Monday. This means noboday has to worry about the dreaded split weekends. Also you don't have to pay your airline logistics staff on 3 days out of the week. Furthermore you probably have better luck getting seats on the routes you desire because these are slower travel days than the weekends. Again, I probably have no businesss even suggesting this without a management degree but I have this thing I do called "thinking" and I think it just MIGHT catch on.

 

[rajflyboy]

4/3 is way better than a 8/7

8 days is way too long to be on the road. Its in fact dangerous. 121 and scheduled 135 regs don't allow a pilot to work more than 6 days without at least 24 hours off. That reg is there for a reason.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Be Careful What You Wish For -$$$$$

But it's my understanding that CS commutes all pilots on Monday-Thursday. You either work a Thursday to Wednesday, or a Tuesday to Monday. This means noboday has to worry about the dreaded split weekends. .

That would actually not be bad if they did it THAT way.
Hopefully there wouldn't be an ADDITIONAL pay decrease for that extra day per trip of work they won't be getting out of you...although I can't imagine that the schedule would change just out of the goodness of their hearts.

 

[gray eagle]

rajflyboy. Fractional Operations do not comply with the definition of a scheduled operatins as defined by 135.261. A company defined pilot WORK schedule of 6 and 4, 17 day per month, 7 and 7, etc. does not equal a Company published flight schedule.
"(1) Scheduled passenger-carrying operations except those conducted solely within the state of Alaska. “Scheduled passenger-carrying operations” means passenger-carrying operations that are conducted in accordance with a published schedule which covers at least five round trips per week on at least one route between two or more points, includes dates or times (or both), and is openly advertised or otherwise made readily available to the general public, and ..."

I am sure that the Fractional do not have gate agents there only to sell tickets to the general public.

Fractional Operations are regulated by 135.263 (Flight time limitations and rest requirements: All certificate holders) and 135.267 (Flight time limitations and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews).

You, of course, are welcome to disagree.

 

[gray eagle]

rajflyboy, Sorry, forgot to say that the sennario you elude to is cover by 135.265 and is for scheduled operators only. Refer to 135.261.

"121 and scheduled 135 regs don't allow a pilot to work more than 6 days without at least 24 hours off. That reg is there for a reason."

 

[rajflyboy]

Yep.... notice I said "Scheduled" 135 operations

Most corporate/Fractional 135 flights sure aren't scheduled.

The FAA must have some problem with pilots working more than 6 days in a row. Why else would they have the 24/7 rule. It sucks that corporate/fractional pilots don't have the 24 in 7 rule. We definately need it in my opinion.

 

[Frac Daddy]

4/3 is way better than a 8/7

8 days is way too long to be on the road. Its in fact dangerous. 121 and scheduled 135 regs don't allow a pilot to work more than 6 days without at least 24 hours off. That reg is there for a reason.

And 3 days off is not long enough to be home. Not to mention, you would be away from home and additional two weeks vs. the 8/7.

 

[rajflyboy]

4/3 over 8/7 any day of the week

 

[FracDaddy]

And 3 days off is not long enough to be home. Not to mention, you would be away from home and additional two weeks vs. the 8/7.

Daddy you are right on the money here. 7/7 would be the best balance but I don't see that until we get a contract.

One of the great things I like about 7 off is being able to plan good trips with my family without taking vacation. 3 days like you say is just not enough time.

 

[Hobbes]

4/3 over 8/7?

For those of you advocating 4/3...have you considered the fact that you will ALWAYS work the SAME days of the week? And you most likely won't be able to pick which ones that is. Some folks will work weekdays and some folks will work over the weekends.

SCENARIO: Your wife works Mon-Thur in her career, your children are school aged. You are assigned on the 4 on 3 off schedule to work Thurs - Sun. You now NEVER share a common day off with your wife or children except for vacations, illness, or holidays (but only holiday for them - we still work (at normal pay)) What a family wrecker that schedule will be. That could happen to me if they institute 4 on/ 3 off.

Right now they have six days of work from you in between days of airlining, which may or may not allow company flying depending on the particular airlining schedule. Each four day tour will only have 2 days of airline free work in between airline days. Our productivity would be way down, and there airline costs would basically double. I can't imagine who would decide that would be a good move for us as a pilot group. We will all wait and see, like we always do.

 

[guido411]

Raj,

I think we all need some of what you're smokin' if you swear by a 4/3 schedule. We'd all be in a perpetual schedule that would never change days off and on. We'd be riding on the airlines more than twice as much (which ask almost any fracker and they'll say that's the worst part of the job). We'd work more days for the same pay. And you'd actually have to bid and be AWARDED vacation if you ever want to do anything besides mow your lawn and wash clothes on your days off.

I agree with the fatigue effect, just ask anybody I've flown with what Day 7 is like with me. For any of us, really. But still give me 7 days off to recoop from time away from home.

 

[rajflyboy]

If I was King:

5 and 5 would be an option for a schedule
7 and 7 would be too because I know so many of you love it, although its not a schedule that I like

 

[minimums]

Give me a 4/3 schedule.....

.....and I would quit. I would rather sell fish to a blind man than work that schedule.

 

[guido411]

If I was King:

5 and 5 would be an option for a schedule
7 and 7 would be too because I know so many of you love it, although its not a schedule that I like

. . .and if 4/3 is your standard schedule, your opponent gets my vote. Although you don't really vote for King do you? Ok, I'd have you assasinated and your brother would take the throne.

 

[Dep676]

I told you guy before. The management team at Flight Options is just PLAIN STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. The stand in CEO did not ask anyone about the cost of 4/3 before he opened his silly little mouth and I bet ya a buck that none of the jello eatin' sissy boys on the management team have told the stand in CEO how STUPID his comment because of SUCK UP to RICCI mentality that still prevails.

Well it is because of all the "Kool-Aid" drinking management and CA live in CGF. They are home everynight and never go out on the road. So therefore they have no clue what actually happens on the road.

 

[waveoff]

Hey...

Did the used Hawker PM kiss enough butt to get promoted yet? I last heard that he was after the vacated chief pilot position. Nothing like having someone with less than 1,000 hours fixed wing time running the show!!!

 

[rajflyboy]

If I was king... 5 and 5 would be the schedule

No more 7 on