30 year pay difference SWA vs. Fedex

[FoxHunter]

There is a lot more to the pay issue than pay per hour. I have no idea what a SWA Captain now earns per year, or how many hard hours he flys. In the case I cited the Captain said he had made $139,000 and the F/O I was flying with had earned $180,000. This was six or seven years ago.

Last year one Captain I know of was bumped for training for almost 200 pay hours. Yes, stay home from a 10 day trip and get paid for it, or fly during that period and get paid for another trip, or if available fly another trip at 150% pay. In one case I'm aware of the Captain flew 595 hours for the year and earned $340,000.

 

[sandman2122]

Hours

I like to throw into the pot how many hours folks had to fly to earn their pay.

Last year I flew 390+- block hours (holding a line) and made the "projected pay" for my year on the wide body F/O slots. No draft, or significant overtime flying.

My point, in most FedEx airplanes you will make the same amount of money (as a SWA guy,in this case) and fly far less block hours. Our MD-11 guys, I understand fly more block hours going international all the time. I don't want this job to kill me, so I LUV longer hotel layovers and less time in the air for the same pay! More time to workout and enjoy the layover city!

Flying 800 +- block hours a years gotz to be tough!

 

[Falconjet]

Hours flying versus hours sitting

Here is another example of how the flying at FedEx differs from the flying at a pax carrier. The pax carrier only makes money with their jet when it is in the air flying people around. They don't have to refund the cost of the ticket when a flight is delayed or canceled due to weather, they just re-book the pax on a later flight.

FedEx makes money by getting the boxes and the mail there positively, absolutely, overnight. If it doesn't get there, we pay refunds. Ouch. That means they pay pilots to sit around a lot to cover contingencies and extra trips that the pax carriers don't necessarily have to.

FedEx pays its pilots to fly a leg or two into the hub, sit for 4-6 hours, and fly one or two legs back out. Our margins are much higher, so we can make money without having to wring every last flight hour out of the pilots or the jets. And sometimes those legs are very short, so you don't get much block time on many of those trips. Trips with 16 legs over 4 nights and total block time of less than 14 hours are all over our domestic system.

It comes down to what would you rather do during the 12-13 hours the company has you on the hook? Go in at 2pm or 2am and fly a couple of hours, sit for 4-6 hours, and fly a couple more hours and go home or to the hotel (FDX). Or show up at 6 am or 1 pm and fly 4-6 legs and 7-8 block hours before heading home or to the hotel (SWA). Neither is better, and I can see why some pilots would just as soon fly while they are at work instead of sitting around in the recliner room or the ramp office in Des Moines for 3 hours and 59 minutes. Each to his own.

I don't think we, as FedEx pilots, do ourselves any favors by boasting how much we make by flying so few block hours. The public and management already have a negative opinion about how much we "work" for how much we get paid, why throw oil on that gas fire in an effort to impress the guys at the pax carriers that we make more money per block hour?

It is also bad juju in my mind, so if you are fortunate enough to have a line where you can spend the majority of your work day in a nice layover hotel or your home city, just smile to yourself and thank your lucky stars.

The best part about FedEx is there are about 4200 different ideas about what a good line/trip is, and there are many different kinds of trips to chose from. That allows lots of pilots to find lines/trips that they prefer, which is a good thing, and may be something to boast about.

FJ

 

[sandman2122]

Honest Comparison

Falconjet,

Good post,

This was a comparison over how much a pilot can make over a lengthly career. I believe it's fair to say that it's possible at FedEx to make the same,or more money in wide-body jets while flying far less than SWA or some of the major airline guys. That goes for the narrow-body 727 (737's soon) too.

I am proud of our first contract enabling a schedule allowing for good layovers and few block hours -while making the same or more pay than XYZ airline. And I hope we can secure a better contract with fewer legs per hub-turn, we all know how tired you get after a Thursday night turn in MEM. When we get senior, we can all "boast" about how much fun it is to fly wearing sunglasses - havn't flown with mine in a long time.

Finally, the nightly hub turns which you brought up are the sort of schedule I've been flying lately, indeed they sux and it's hard on the body = which is why I workout and try my best to enjoy myself during a layover vs. being a slam-clicker crewmember, holed-up in their hotel room for a 40 hr. layover in great places like Las Vegas, LAX or Boise, yes, Boise is a great town!

 

[TonyC]

Re: Take Two

Its obvious the FO making 40k more than the capt is a little "far fetched" as you put it. Looks to me that the pay is roughly equal on the same type of equip, with a slight SWA advantage. Granted there is no higher payscale to bid at SWA unless you count the ability to move to the Capt. scale after 4 or 5 or maybe 6 years.

What's obvious is that you have made some assumptions that may or may not be valid in order to pile on the accusation that FoxHunter is lying. How do you know that the SWA Captain was in a particular year group? How do you know thw FDX F/O was in a particular year group, or even on a narrowbody? What facts are you using to call FoxHunter a liar?

My point about the story of the jumpseating SWA Captain was kind of like Texas said. I've heard several versions of that story in the first person from several different pilots in just the short time I've been at FedEx, and I guess the more they tell it the more they believe it to be true, or maybe that it really did occur in their cockpit. Thats fine, but if you simply look at the numbers today, you can easily see that there is no way that a widebody FO at FedEx is going to make $40K more than a SWA Captain with normal amounts of work by each pilot.

FDX Widebody FO pay

YR 5 122
yr10 136

SWA Capt Pay (before 13% raise)

YR 7 169
YR10 175

So although this story sounds good and may help some guys feel better about the fact that they decided to go with FedEx instead of a pax carrier, it just doesn't hold water, no matter how many times it gets repeated.

FJ

Who said anything about normal amounts of work? Who said the F/O was a widebody F/O, or that he had 10 years - - or that the SWA Capt had 7?

Apparently you DID intend to call FoxHunter a liar. And it looks like FoxHunter is being quite the gentleman about it.

There is a lot more to the pay issue than pay per hour. I have no idea what a SWA Captain now earns per year, or how many hard hours he flys. In the case I cited the Captain said he had made $139,000 and the F/O I was flying with had earned $180,000. This was six or seven years ago.

Last year one Captain I know of was bumped for training for almost 200 pay hours. Yes, stay home from a 10 day trip and get paid for it, or fly during that period and get paid for another trip, or if available fly another trip at 150% pay. In one case I'm aware of the Captain flew 595 hours for the year and earned $340,000.

Ahhhhh.... so there's more to it than an hourly rate, huh? Interesting. You mean to say work rules should be considered, too? Hmmmm. Thank you for that insight.

Gentlemen?

 

[TexaSWA]

Re: Take Two

So although this story sounds good and may help some guys feel better about the fact that they decided to go with FedEx instead of a pax carrier, it just doesn't hold water, no matter how many times it gets repeated.

FJ

Easy (tony the) Tiger, youre making yourself sound like one of these guys.

I was in no way calling Fox Hunter a liar. I said that I had seen a post a few years back and mentioned that that probably could have happened under the old SWA pay scales but not under the current. Fox understood and confirmed in his later post, saying that it was indeed six or seven years ago.

And yes, work rules should also be considered too. SWA and FDX both have some great ones.

My main point and the main point of pretty much everyone else involved in the thread...

Pay is good both places. What kind of flying do you want to do?

I enjoy flying passengers and all the good and bad it entails (sp)? Some people dont. Thats why I chose SWA.

I have done hub turns and waited all night through sorts all over the world. Its fine for some, but given a choice its not for me.

Congratulations on finding what is right for you.

 

[PTinbound]

A quick word on SWA retirement...

Whoever says SWA doesn't have a retirement is embarassingly ignorant. I just can't put it any more gently than that. We don't have a traditional "A fund" like the USair guys had before they took it away. We have the mother of all 401k's, with 100% matching up to 7.3%, and we have profit sharing that has averaged about 10% of your end of the year W2. When I was in training, my dad ran an excel spreadsheet to crunch the numbers.
In short, it's based on me giving 8% of my salary and them matching dollar for dollar almost the same amount (7.3%). I figured on a conservative 8% per year profit sharing, and an 8% return average on all these investments. At the end of my almost 25 year career here, it came out to right around 2.5 million in the bank, in my funds that I control, that they can't take away.
The spreadsheet also took into account the max 401k (per IRS) contribution of 15,000 each year. So do you fund your own retirement? About a third of it, but hey, what's 15 grand if you are pulling in over 200 as a captain (not current pay, but will be by the time I ever upgrade!)? Now I could never say anything bad about FEDEX, but I'm sure a happy camper here. And we have a great time at work.

 

[Falconjet]

Retirement

PT: I don't mean to be condescending, but there is a huge difference between a "retirement plan" and a "retirement". In the comparison I included the SW 401K match. In general terms, most people are refering to an A or B fund defined benefit plan when they use the word "retirement" in regard to the airline industry.

There is nothing wrong with a retirement plan that uses a 401K match and your savings to acquire a nice nest egg for your retirement years. You can argue that it is better because its your money and you control it, and you are immediately vested so you can take it with you. Thats all true and well and good. However, half of that money (or more) is money that you are contributing by deferring salary. So you are contributing to your retirement fund by saving part of your salary.

With a defined benefit like FedEx's A and B funds, the company is paying directly into it and it doesn't cost us any salary. I too can contribute to a 401K (and even have a small company match) and accumlate just as big a nest egg as you can AND still enjoy my defined benefit plans at FedEx.

Now, if things go south and the company goes out of business, yes we could lose that benefit. But it is a true "retirement". Companies now days are trying to avoid them to reduce costs, and it is possibly a bit more risky now days than a 401K, but what can you do. Your 401K can go down the tube as well, just ask the folks at Enron. So there is some risk either way, but they are apples and oranges.

Imagine if during your military career the government said that all you could do was buy savings bonds and they would match what you invested up 13% of your salary instead of paying you a retirement after 20 years. I don't think that you'd think that was such a good deal after all. Thats kind of how I look at the 401K plan of the new legacy carriers. Yes they are a good deal, but the traditional defined benefit (given that the company properly funds it and remains viable 25 years down the road) is an even better deal.

I certainly wasn't bashing SW, and in fact have been trying to defend their pay and benefits as being much better than many folks seem to give them credit for. And I know that you guys have fun working there. But that doesn't make a 401K plan a "retirement" in the classic, defined benefit, going the way of the do-do bird sense.

I have bet the farm so to speak on FedEx being one of those companies that will still be around to pay me a benefit that I surely will have earned by 2020.

FJ

 

[Falconjet]

Tony

Woa now Tiger! That is a pretty strong word, and I never called anybody a lier. I'm glad that we have found the source of the story. That doesn't change the fact that a guy posted a question about pay comparisons over the long haul and the Fox threw out an anecdotal experience that he had as if that should answer the question.

Intriqued, since I had actually just researched the numbers and heard similar conversations between the front enders on my flights, I had to throw out the BS flag. I'm not saying that the Fox didn't hear what he heard, but I am saying that somebody in that cockpit was BS-ing somebody, because the numbers just don't add up.

A first year Captain at SW in 1999 (according to AirInc) was making $136,500 per year.

A maxed out widebody FO at FedEx in 1999 (again, according to AirInc figures) would make $139,776 per year.

$3K a year difference ok, I stand corrected, but $40K more for the FO for "equal" work, I still don't think so.

Of course the numbers now days would be much more in favor of the SW Captain since their pay has come up to at least $169K and the widebody FO is at about $140-150K.

The main point is to use current, verifiable numbers rather than old anecdotal occurances to answer the guy's question.

And of course to always remember that there is much more to the story than simple hourly pay rates and retirement benefits. I tried to emphasize that in my original posts.

I hope that clears up where I was coming from and I apologize to FoxHunter if he took any offense. He didn't yell at me so I hope he didn't.

FJ

 

[jball2]

It is time to end this thread! You could pay me a million a year and I would not want to be a night cargo pilot. However, there are plenty of the cargo guys an gals who would say the same about my job, obviously. Whatever floats your boat!

Lets put our pants back on and put the rulers away!

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

Educational thread.

 

[Falconjet]

Time to go home

Ok guys, Jball2 took his ball and went home, time to stop the game.

Thanks for keeping us all in line jball2.

FJ

 

[sandman2122]

Rulers for SWA guys and tape measures for FedEx guys!

Hardy, har, har

"Smooth B" gotz to go and check on my bitchessss.

Word up y'all

 

[PTinbound]

FJ, thanks for your response. In honesty, I just got home and the boss really doesn't want me on Flightinfo now, so I didn't really read your previous posts thouroughly and I sure wasn't referring to you at all. My apologies. I just remember another previous poster saying something negative about my new airline and it got my hackles up a little bit. Your points are well thought out and well taken. Heck, I wouldn't turn down an A fund if someone offered it to me. But in the end, I think both you and I should enjoy a decent retirement thanks to our respective companies.

 

[TonyC]

Re: Tony

Woa now Tiger! That is a pretty strong word, and I never called anybody a lier. I'm glad that we have found the source of the story. That doesn't change the fact that a guy posted a question about pay comparisons over the long haul and the Fox threw out an anecdotal experience that he had as if that should answer the question.

Intriqued, since I had actually just researched the numbers and heard similar conversations between the front enders on my flights, I had to throw out the BS flag. I'm not saying that the Fox didn't hear what he heard, but I am saying that somebody in that cockpit was BS-ing somebody, because the numbers just don't add up.

...

I hope that clears up where I was coming from and I apologize to FoxHunter if he took any offense. He didn't yell at me so I hope he didn't.

FJ

My original observation was that it appears you're calling FoxHunter a liar. I'm glad to hear that was not your intention. Now I see that your intention was to call somebody else a liar (that's what BS means to me, anyway).

If the SWA Captain said he made $140, and the FedEx F/O said he made $180, who are you to say that's impossible? Nobody compared calendars for days worked, or logbooks for block hours flown, or even pay logs to compare pay codes - - straight time, draft, volunteer, removed for training, PDO bumped for training, whatever. Making $180 as a widebody F/O was well within reason, even 7 years ago. ESPECIALLY 7 years ago ! ! Before the contract, scheduling could - - AND DID - - pay 200% at times.

If FoxHUnter said it happened to HIM - - I'm inclined to believe it, and leave it at that.

You're right - - that's not how the thread began. But the thread didn't begin comparing cargo vs. pax, either. It was a simple look at hourly rates TODAY.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Lets put our pants back on and put the rulers away!

It's always the one with the smallest tool wanting to end the tool check.

 

[Snoopy58]

Wanted to offer a couple other observations, more as "food for thought" for those still reading & learning about the dynamics of airline pay.

I'll agree with Sandman that it is highly possible for a FedEx pilot who works his system to make a LOT more than an average SWA pilot, while flying significantly fewer hours. It is ALSO possible, though, for a SWA pilot in the right position to also make a lot more than the average SWA pilot, quite possibly while also flying fewer hours. Each airline has its tricks which work if you're situated & inclined to take advantage of them... sit reserve at home in domicile, pass (or if possible give away) assignments, volunteer for extra flying any day any time if the premium price is right, etc. Good on the guys who can make it work; my life isn't flexible enough to drop everything on zero notice to go fly some outrageously high paying turn, but some guys live for those calls. Scheduling loves them, and their willingness to fly that stuff means fewer JA ("sorry, Snoopy, but we need ...") calls for me!

There are people at SWA as well as FedEx who've done very, very well, beyond all averages. The captains who fly widebody jets for 15 years have a very good thing going, particularly if $ is the big thing you look at. Not everybody will be a widebody captain at FedEx for 15 years, though. Just like not everybody at SWA will be a captain for 32 of their 34 years at the airline with all their original profitsharing in SWA stock since the mid 70's!

When it's all said & done, a widebody full of priority overnight small packages is carrying a LOT more $ of revenue than a 737 with (max) 137 people who paid (at most) $299 for their ticket... so even flying several legs in the 737 that day, and much of the revenue from the packages going to pay for trucks & drivers & sort facilities & etc, the freight guy at the high end probably can do better in years 32, 33, and 34 than his twin brother at SWA. So, if you're 26 and have offers from SWA and FedEx and total earnings is your sole criteria, I don't know that I have much argument to tell you that you'll do better at SWA than FedEx.

For a shorter career, though, reference the numbers Falconjet posted above, and my earlier comments about uncertainties & the difference being well within the margin of error for forecasting your future careers at each place. NEITHER job will leave you in sight of the poorhouse, unless your money all goes to multiple ex-wives & insane mortgage payments, in which case neither job will pay you nearly enough. They're both good, and I'll go back to what I & others have said before: be aware of the (best guesstimate) financial side, but consider the lifestyle factors: day flying vs years on the backside of the clock, dealing with pax & F/A's, or flying boxes, living in a domicile vs commuting for a career, flying big jets across lots of time zones vs domestic layovers, etc etc etc. And be cognizant of things like seniority -- bird in hand vs bird in the bush, 2 year headstart at FedEx, etc.

For *ME*, the difference between a (totally hypothetical numbers here) $4M career and a $5M career is not NEARLY worth the stress of working backside of the clock, then swapping around to have a "normal" day with the family, then swapping again next time I go to work, FOR THE REST OF MY CAREER! Not even close! But that is only just me, and for plenty of people that lifestyle is no problem at all, and I'm glad that it works for them. But there are reasons SWA was my first choice & FedEx wasn't, just like many people wanted FedEx above everything else. Doesn't make anybody stupid, or ill-informed, or wrong, or mistaken. Just a reflection that people's priorities differ.

My recommendation is to consider YOUR priorities, all of them, and don't let some financial estimate of the next 20 years be your only guiding factor.

Sorry for the long ramble, but maybe a few people may get something worth considering out of it.

 

[C-17->Majors]

It's all good. I have great friends at SWA and I am a 2 year and counting barista here in Purple Land. If you have two job offers, consider yourself very blessed. If you have only one, be thankful for that and go with it. If you want a job offer from a great airline pursue both. If you are hung up on your need to fly pax or freight, reconsider why you are in this business. A lot of money to be made from either company, both with bright futures.

I was turned down by SWA after I assumed that my female interviewer was a stew (that is the correct term right?), and successfully interviewed at FedEx two months later after months of waiting on an interview (apparently there are no stews at FedEx). I love both companies and would be proud to work for either. Very few people have a choice between the two right now and I bet none of them think that career earnings are very important in their decision making process.

I would be happy pouring coffee for five more years if the pay was good and I still got to fly an awesome airplane in the ANG. But that is just me...