250 below 10K internationally?

[Beetle007]

So I've always heard people say we can do 250 below 10K when we are 12 miles offshore. Most controllers even seem to expect it on some arrivals into airports like Ft. Lauderdale.

This FAA legal interpreation (dated 2007) seems to say otherwise: http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...tations/data/interps/2007/Shacknai interp.pdf

Has anyone had any issues with this or has the FAA ever issued a violation since this 2007 interpretation?

Can the FAA even issue a violation for something that happens in international airspace?

 

[rumpletumbler]

I was up front descending into Frankfurt in a Lufthansa A-340 a few years ago and I was surprised to see the guy doing 320 at like 7 grand. I was glad we weren't over Florida.

 

[Beetle007]

I was up front descending into Frankfurt in a Lufthansa A-340 a few years ago and I was surprised to see the guy doing 320 at like 7 grand. I was glad we weren't over Florida.

A birdstrike might hurt at 320kts. I've "heard" of people that do 340kts at 2000 ft when flying internationally. Probably not that fuel efficient either =)

 

[Looking]

Even though 250 KIAS is adapted by the ICAO as the international standard bellow 10000' and also written into rules by most of the ICAO member countries; the respective countries has also given ATC the sole authority to waive this restriction as they see at any given time.
Some European airports has made the 250 KIAS permanent below 10000' , others have made it only within certain FIRS and bellow certain altitudes, while others again have made it "free speed" unless otherwise informed by ATC or ATIS.

 

[Cardinal]

That letter is ridiculous. "Yes, a metric crapload of FAA documentation refers to the accepted practice of no speed limit beyond the FIR, but we feel 91.117 is sacred as God and the Administrator intended."

 

[Fly4$]

Anybody know the exact reason for the 250 restriction? I thought it was just to make the speeds more manageable for ATC.

Don't see any reason why we need to be restricted when flying well outside the coast.

 

[Beetle007]

Anybody know the exact reason for the 250 restriction? I thought it was just to make the speeds more manageable for ATC.

Don't see any reason why we need to be restricted when flying well outside the coast.

The short answer is Bird Strikes.

"In 1997 the FAA began a test at the Houston Intercontinental Airport, allowing for speeds in excess of 250 KIAS on departure."

"In 1999 the NTSB expressed their concern to the FAA regarding the safety of high-speed flight at low altitude due to the bird strike hazard (Hall, 1999). Since the test could not be proven to be as safe as the former procedure the FAA terminated the test."http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1003&context=birdstrike2005

This is what happend to an Airbus that hit a bird at 250 kts. Imagine hitting one at 340 kts:​

"In 1989 an A-320 aircraft, operating at 2,500’ and 250 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS), collided with a vulture (~10 pound) just above the cockpit windscreen. Although the windows were not penetrated, sufficient energy was imparted onto the airframe to destroy 4 of the 6 cockpit display units (CRTs) and loosen a fire button, causing the shutdown of one engine."

 

[Wino]

The short answer is Bird Strikes. Hitting a bird at 300 kts vs 250 kts will resule in 44% greater impact forces.

Ummm, NO, 100 percent wrong. The short answer is ANCESTOR WORSHIP

The reason the reg was enacted was because of a collision between two 4 engine aircraft over brooklyn in the early 60s.

On the 16th of Dec 1960 a United DC-8 over ran its clearence limit while entering a holding pattern and ran into a TWA Connie.

The 8 didn't have DME as it wasn't required at the time and was busy trying to do crossing radials at 300 plus knots near the ground.

The net result of the collision (other than dead people splattered over NYC) was the 250 below 10 rule and DME became mandatory. (remember Rickenbacker used to order the aircraft for Eastern Airlines without autopilots... He paid his pilots to FLY!)

Cheers
Andrew Weingram

PS. 250 below 10 COSTS fuel. Don't believe me? Set up econ on your FMS, and delete the speed limits. You will be suprised at the result. You will Climb at a much higher speed. You will come down slower, However...

 

[Beetle007]

Ummm, NO, 100 percent wrong. The short answer is ANCESTOR WORSHIP

Yes..the FAA originally established 250 kts due to mid-air collision avoidance. But, the FAA wanted to allow some airports to waive the 250 kt restriction (like Houston, Memphis, Atlanta, etc..). The FAA abandoned this test when the NTSB was concerned about bird strikes. To tell me that I am 100 percent wrong is just ignorant.

 

[Cardinal]

A few aircraft (all Embraers?) are limited to 250 down low anyway on account of the birdstrike risk.