250 below 10000

[taters]

d. When ATC assigns speed adjustments, it will be in accordance with the following recommended minimums:

1. To aircraft operating between FL 280 and 10,000 feet, a speed not less than 250 knots or the equivalent Mach number.
NOTE-
1. On a standard day the Mach numbers equivalent to 250 knots CAS (subject to minor variations) are:
FL 240-0.6
FL 250-0.61
FL 260-0.62
FL 270-0.64
FL 280-0.65
FL 290-0.66.

2. When an operational advantage will be realized, speeds lower than the recommended minima may be applied.

2. To arriving turbojet aircraft operating below 10,000 feet:



​

​

(a) A speed not less than 210 knots, except;
(b) Within 20 flying miles of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 170 knots.


​

​

3. To arriving reciprocating engine or turboprop aircraft within 20 flying miles of the runway threshold of the airport of intended landing, a speed not less than 150 knots.
4. To departing aircraft:


​

​

(a) Turbojet aircraft, a speed not less than 230 knots.
(b) Reciprocating engine aircraft, a speed not less than
150 knots.


​

​

e. When ATC combines a speed adjustment with a descent clearance, the sequence of delivery, with the word "then" between, indicates the expected order of execution.​

​

...........this is a DP ...they have thier own restrictions if you choose to accept the DP/STAR. This is far different than the Part 91 speed restrictions.

 

[spngbobsqrpilot]

Right. Now, you're missing one step there. Find where the adminstrator's authority is designated to an individual Air Traffic controller. I can show you exactly where it is written that the adminstrator's authority is designated to an individual inspector. Show me where its the same delegation is made for a controller. Bet you can't

How about ....delegated... (as it is written)

By that logic, Air Traffic Controller's instructions are not obligatory.

The Administrator has delegated Control of Air Traffic to those Certified by the Administrator (and those who are certified by the Administrator) to act in the Adminstrators capacity to Control Air Traffic. I doubt THE HEAD HONCHO Administrator in DC is not likely to be manning ARTCC or any other facility in the near future, so THE HEAD HONCHO Administrator has DELEGATED his authority of actual ATC to those Certified by THE ADMINISTRATOR.

This makes Clearances OBLIGATORY as they are taken to mean direct from THE ADMINISTRATOR.

If ARTCC or Tower Cab or TRACON personnel are not considered "administrator in the matter concerned" (i.e control of air traffic) then where is the obligation of the pilot to follow the instructions and clearance?

Any ATC specialist can tell you that they will lose their certificate if found that they violate their FARs and The Controller Manual which cover their positions. Continously issuing illegal or unsafe clearances (leading to LOS or terrain violations) will lead to certificate action by the FSDO on the ATC Specialist. However, when OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS require clearances in this discussion (>250KIAS <10,000') the ATC Specialist has been granted "administrator status" for the matter concerned... ATC. Otherwise we have NO "controlling legal authority" (thanks, Al) to follow ATC instructions if those instructions are not taken and understood to be the word of THE ADMINISTRATOR.

As far as 91.117...

(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).

ATC does not necessarily "control" by means of obligatory communications between ATC and all aircraft in all airspace below (for the purpose of this discussion) 10K. So if your OPS SPECS or LOA direct from THE ADMINISTRATOR or FSDO allows you to fly over 250 below 10K (how about throwing military authorization in there for MTR's as an example of what the ADMINISTRATOR has authorized) then by all means, ATC did not authorize that speed, but the ADMINISTRATOR did through the FSDO.

So ATC does not have to be specifically referenced here as it does in (b) and (c) which cover class D, C and B airspace.

And that is why the language changes from "ADMINISTRATOR" to "ATC" although they are considered one in the same.

The regulation just specifies when ATC can act as ADMINISTRATOR and where ATC acts as ADMINISTRATOR, namely within "ATC Communications Required" airspace. (D,C, and B)

If ATC needs me to get outta da way, better believe I'll be movin' and filin' the NASA report later!

And yes, I'm aware that I should question the need for the deviation.
But most of the time, I'm listening up and can figure out what is behind me, but more than likely, the controller will tell you why they need a certain speed.

 

[HS125]

...........this is a DP ...they have thier own restrictions if you choose to accept the DP/STAR. This is far different than the Part 91 speed restrictions.

Go back and re-read my original post! It was in response to a question regarding how slow ATC can ask you to fly on arrival and approach and had nothing to do with the question about exceeding 250 below 10,000.

However, since you asked; on departure, ATC can not ask a turbojet to fly slower than 230kts, nor can ATC authorize or request you to fly faster than 250kts below 10,000. You as a pilot may only exceed 250 below 10,000 (inside the 12 mile limit) if it is operationally necessary (I.e. minimum clean maneuvering speed is greater than 250kts).

 

[jetalc]

Crank-stomping 101 by Hugh Johnson

"There is no speed restriction in Class B, anywhere."

WRONG. Nice try. Back to ground school for you. Reference para (b) below. Para (d) applies to all the big guys that have to go fast.


Sec. 91.117 - Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).
(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.
(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph). (d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

Johnson - I believe it is you who needs to learn to read. Yes, paragraph b states that operations withing Class B shall comply with paragraph a, however, you are conveniently only reading a part of paragraph a - it clearly states "Below 10,000 feet MSL at an airspeed...."... back to groundschool for you. What an ignorant and cocky thing to say! And yes - you severely stepped on your crank.

 

[rballty]

[quote=A Squared]If he thinks he is "the adminstrator" then he is not more informed that me. he is misinformed. He not the first controller to be laboring under this misunderstanding.

Your buddy is most likely confused by 91.117(d) which allows the restriction to be lifted for *safety* not operational conveninece. This is in accoradance with the regulations and does not make ATC "the administrator"

He is not my buddy, just my college professor who teaches advanced Air Traffic Control courses. I am sure he hasn't read the Far's, or your version of the ATC Handbook, or flown a DC-6, so what does he know.

 

[taters]

Go back and re-read my original post! It was in response to a question regarding how slow ATC can ask you to fly on arrival and approach and had nothing to do with the question about exceeding 250 below 10,000.

However, since you asked; on departure, ATC can not ask a turbojet to fly slower than 230kts, nor can ATC authorize or request you to fly faster than 250kts below 10,000. You as a pilot may only exceed 250 below 10,000 (inside the 12 mile limit) if it is operationally necessary (I.e. minimum clean maneuvering speed is greater than 250kts).

My fault,,thanks for the clarification

 

[Resocha]

I just spoke to a controller about this issue who is obviously much more informed than you people are. You need to get some firsthand knowledge on the subject versus your limited ability to quote the regs and the ATC handbook. ATC is a designee of the administrator wether you like the idea or not, they waive this restriction daily for operational needs.

I used to work for that organization that all pilots fear in that sterile glass building on Maryland Avenue, SW, Washington, DC, and if you're friend is "waiving" the issue, then he is doing it contrary to the the FAA orders. The process is explained here: FAA Order 8300.10, Chapter 8, "Exemptions, Deviations, Waivers, and Authorizations." Paragraphs 1-19.

 

[A Squared]

He is not my buddy, just my college professor who teaches advanced Air Traffic Control courses. I am sure he hasn't read the Far's, or your version of the ATC Handbook, or flown a DC-6, so what does he know.

Well, not much apparently.

So far you and your buddy haven’t offered on iota of documentation that ATC is authorized to waive the 250Knot limit for reasons other than safety. So far all you’ve said is in effect is "My buddy is really really smart and he knows lots and lots of things, so he’s right and I’m right" Pardon me for being skeptical, but it takes something a little more substantial to convince me, and you haven’t posted a single thing of substance.


Have your buddy show you where in FAA Order 7110.65R (the ATC handbook) or in any other official FAA document controllers are authorized to waive the 250 knot rule for operational reasons. An authorization like that is not passed by word of mouth, if it exists, it’s documented, ask him where.

Have your buddy explain why, if ATC has the authority to waive the 250knot restriction, did they have a special test program where one ATC facility was given, for a limited time, the authority to waive the 250knot restriction? Did they forget ATC already had that authority? Or was it because they *didn’t* have the authority. Ask your buddy which explanation makes more sense.

Ask your buddy why Part 91 contains no less than 14 regulations which state "unless authorized by ATC....." yet 91.117(a) says "unless authorized by the Adminstrator....." not ATC Perhaps they really meant to say ATC, but they forgot how to spell it?


OK, now, take your AIM over to your buddy’s house and show it to him. Have him read 4-4-11(h)

h. Pilots are reminded that they are responsible for rejecting the application of speed adjustment by ATC if, in their opinion, it will cause them to exceed the maximum indicated airspeed prescribed by 14 CFR Section 91.117(a), (c) and (d). IN SUCH CASES, THE PILOT IS EXPECTED TO SO INFORM ATC. Pilots operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL who are issued speed adjustments which exceed 250 knots IAS and are subsequently cleared below 10,000 feet MSL are expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a).

Now, ask your buddy why, If ATC is authorized to waive the 250 knot speed restriction, why does the AIM specifically instruct pilots to reject any clearance which would result in them exceeding that speed? Why is that?

Now, notice also that the AIM excerpt says to reject clearances which will cause them to exceed the speed limitations in 91.117 (a) and (c), yet it doesn’t mention 91.117 (b) Do you think it is because ATC may authorize exceeding 91.117 (b) but not 91.117 (a) and (c) ? Ya think? Ask your buddy what he thinks about that.

OK, now, hand the AIM back to your buddy and have him read 4-4-11(j)

j. For operations in a Class C and Class D surface area, ATC is authorized to request or approve a speed greater than the maximum indicated airspeeds prescribed for operation within that airspace (14 CFR Section 91.117(b)).

Now ask your buddy why the AIM would tell pilots that ATC can waive 91.117(b), but it doesn’t say anything about ATC waiving 91.117(a). Why is that? It was just discussing 91.117(a) 2 paragraphs ago, does your buddy think that the AIM authors just forgot to mention that ATC has the authority to waive 91.117(a)? Ask your buddy if he can find anywhere in the AIM where it mentions ATC having the authority to waive 91.117(a), anywhere at all.

Ok, now tell your buddy to dig out his ATC handbook and talk a look at the note at the end of 5-7-2

NOTE-
1. A pilot operating at or above 10,000 feet MSL on an assigned speed adjustment greater than 250 knots is expected to comply with 14 CFR Section 91.117(a) when cleared below 10,000 feet MSL, within domestic airspace, without notifying ATC. Pilots are expected to comply with the other provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.117 without notification.

Now have your buddy explain, why, if ATC is authorized to waive 91.117(a), does the ATC handbook tell the controller to expect a pilot to comply with 91.117(a) even though the controller has assigned a higher speed? Does your buddy have an explanation for that?

While your buddy is sitting there thinking about that, give him a copy of Order 8700.1, General Aviation Operations Handbook. If he’s an Aviation professor he probably has a copy of it somewhere. Have him flip to Chapter 49 section 1-1-3(g)(2)


.

(2) ATC may authorize the pilot to exceed 200 knots in addition to a clearance for a low approach. In no case may a pilot construe such an authorization or permission to exceed the § 91.117(a) 250-knot speed limitation below 10,000 feet mean sealevel (MSL).

Now, have your buddy explain that one.


I think I could pretty much rest my case now, as your buddy has a lot of explaining to do, stuff that he won’t ever be able to explain. But I figure that as long as I’m burying you, I might as well really bury you. Here’s the deal. If you want to know what the original intent of a regulation was, you go to the federal register where that regulation, or an amendment of that regulation was published. The Federal Register will contain a discussion of the regulation or amendment of the regulation, explaining what and why. I have posted below the entry in the federal register for the last amendment of 91.117. In the discussion, it makes it very clear, in very explicit language that the administrator does *NOT* give ATC the authority to waive 91.117(a), and in fact the purpose of the amendment was to clarify that ATC does not have that authority, only the administrator has that authority.

SO, ask your buddy, if ATC has the authority to waive 91.117(a), why is it published in the Federal Register that ATC does not? Hmmmmmm??????

I’d really love to hear your Controller/Professor/expert Buddy explain that. Tell us again how "informed" your buddy is. Imagine that, some DC-6 driver with grease under his fingernails is more informed that your professor buddy. He must be the pride of your community college.



Volume 58, No. 157; Tuesday, August 17, 1993; Page 43553
14 CFR Part 91

[Docket No. 24456; Amendment No. 91-233]

Airspace Reclassification

AGENCY:
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.

ACTION:
Final rule; correcting amendment.

SUMMARY:
This action corrects the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule effective September 16, 1993. The Airspace Reclassification Rule inadvertently assigned the authority to air traffic controllers to allow aircraft operators to deviate from the maximum airspeed restriction below 10,000 feet. The authority to approve deviation from the speed limits contained in the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) rests with the Administrator, and the FAA did not intend to amend the approving authority. This action reestablishes the Administrator as the proper authority to permit waivers of aircraft speed. This action also corrects the inadvertent inclusion of Class B airspace in the maximum airspeed restriction effected by the Airspace Reclassification Final Rule.

EFFECTIVE DATE: This correcting amendment is effective as of September 16, 1993.

FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Messieurs Aaron I. Boxer or Joseph C. White, Air Traffic Rules Branch (ATP-230), Airspace - Rules and Aeronautical Information Division, 800 Independence Avenue, SW., Washington, DC 20591, telephone (202) 267-8783.

SUPPLEMENTARY INFORMATION:

Background
On October 18, 1989, the FAA published a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking on Airspace Reclassification (54 FR 42916) which proposed, among other things, that the nomenclature of various airspace areas be renamed to conform with agreements with the International Civil Aviation Organization. On December 17, 1991, the FAA published a final rule on Airspace Reclassification (56 FR 65638) which becomes effective on September 16, 1993. Section 91.117 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.117) was amended as part of this process.
Section 91.117(a) requires that any aircraft operated below 10,000 feet be flown no faster than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.) unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator of the FAA. Section 91.117(b) provides that, unless authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft within an airport traffic area faster than 200 knots (230 m.p.h.), except for operations within a terminal control area. The preamble to the proposed airspace reclassification rule included a discussion of several recommendations received from the National Airspace Review (NAR) task group. NAR 1-2.1.3 recommended several changes to operating requirements in Terminal Control Areas (Class B airspace). Included in NAR 1-2.1.3 was a recommendation to delegate the authority to approve deviation from the 250 knot speed restriction in Class B airspace to air traffic control. The FAA had adopted other portions of NAR 1-2.2.3 through separate actions, but had not intended to incorporate the recommended delegation of authority or include Class B airspace in the 200 knot rule. However, the rule language amending Sec. 91.117(a) inadvertently included such redelegation, and that amending Sec. 91.117(b) inadvertently included the Class B airspace area. This action establishes the Administrator as the sole approving authority for deviations from the aircraft speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(a) and excludes the Class B airspace area from the speed restrictions contained in Sec. 91.117(b).

List of Subjects in 14 CFR Part 91
Air traffic control, Air transportation, Airmen, Airports, Aviation safety.

The Amendment
Accordingly, 14 CFR part 91 in effect as of September 16, 1993, is amended by making the following correcting amendments:

 

[A Squared]

By that logic, Air Traffic Controller's instructions are not obligatory.

Well, logic never was your strong suit, bob. No, we aren't free to ignore ATC instructions because ATC is not "the Administrator". We are required to comply with ATC instructions because the administrator, by issuing 91.123, has directed us to comply with them. That doesn't make ATC "the adminstrator". 91.17 requires a pilot to comply with a local law officer's request for a blood alcohol test, but that doesn't make that officer "the adminstrator" any more than 91.123 makes ATC "the adminstrator".

As for the rest of the question, the excerpt from the Federal Register which I posted in my previous post makes it abundantly and explicitly clear that ATC is not "the adminstrator" nor does ATC have the Authority to waive 91.117(a)

 

[spngbobsqrpilot]

Well, logic never was your strong suit, bob. No, we aren't free to ignore ATC instructions because ATC is not "the Administrator". We are required to comply with ATC instructions because the administrator, by issuing 91.123, has directed us to comply with them. That doesn't make ATC "the adminstrator". 91.17 requires a pilot to comply with a local law officer's request for a blood alcohol test, but that doesn't make that officer "the adminstrator" any more than 91.123 makes ATC "the adminstrator".

As for the rest of the question, the excerpt from the Federal Register which I posted in my previous post makes it abundantly and explicitly clear that ATC is not "the adminstrator" nor does ATC have the Authority to waive 91.117(a)

(My emphasis)

Well, there you go again.

91.123
(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.


Scenario:
ATC instruction is given to a person operating an aircraft in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

Question:

Is it considered an "emergency" in itself to follow the FARs regarding speeds and is the refusal of acceptance of that clearance / instruction based on pilot following 91.117(a) in itself constitute an "emergency"?

Back to 1.1:

Administrator means the Federal Aviation Administrator or any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned.

..."to any person to whom he has delegated his authority in the matter concerned."

The matter here is the Control of aircraft via clearances issued by the Air Traffic Control Specialist (person, "person", now defined to mean "administrator" via delegation of authority). And as anyone who really understands what controllers job ACTUALLY entails will tell you it is the separation of KNOWN aircraft.

"Air traffic clearance means an authorization by air traffic control, for the purpose of preventing collision between known aircraft, for an aircraft to proceed under specified traffic conditions within controlled airspace. "

So if the ATC Specialist (controller) needs you to exceed 91.117(a) based on his KNOWN traffic, and you refuse, based on 91.117(a), do you have to declare an emergency to not follow the instruction while the 747 behind you produces a CA on his scope?

Or does the Controller, with the authority granted to him in the matter concerned, (the Control of Air Traffic) have the authority to grant you a clearance to prevent a collision between known aircraft, and for you to proceed under the SPECIFIED conditions in that clearance?

Sounds like that professor is right to me based on 1.1.

If that's not enough then 91.117(d) covers the pilot of the aircraft as well:

"(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed."

How about the "ANY" particular operation being defined as of including NOT BEING INVOLVED IN A LOS OR MID-AIR?

"Any" is quite a broad term and defined to include all particular operation(s).

So it appears that 91.117(d) allows the Pilot to ACCEPT the CLEARANCE issued by AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL for the OPERATION of preventing a LOS or MID-AIR, and to proceed under those SPECIFIED traffic conditions.

I never said that a controller can just issue illegal and unsafe clearances for the sake of convenience, by the way. In fact, just the opposite. The original post queried as to whether or not the crew could accept the clearance. They could, but as it was correctly pointed out, should have queried ATC as to what speed ATC was looking for, and was ATC aware of the actual IAS at the time the crew was told to maintain present speed. (At which point the controller should have amended the clearance, or explained the need for the deviation... i.e. traffic behind you a 747, etc.)

My point is that if the controller has an operation (preventing LOS or MIDAIR) that REQUIRES a pilot to exceed 91.117(a), both the controller AND pilot are authorized to do so (i.e. issue instruction / follow instruction) for that operation. So the Controller CAN authorize you to deviate from 91.117(a) while complying with 91.117(d).

Got it?