250 Below 10

[westwind driver]

Interesting ASRS report here:

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/docs/cb/cb_249.pdf

 

[Singlecoil]

Where do you get your numbers?

MD80 series (reference the -83 here) If you look at the charts, assuming MGTOW of 149,500#, using the 150,000# chart, 33 degress C at sea level, Altimeter 30.06, dry runway, no wind, Flaps 15

Here are your speeds:

V1: 143
VR: 147
V2: 154
Flap Retract: 169
Slat Retract: 202
Final Segment: 223
Clean Maneuver: 252

The airplane will fly just fine cleaned up at 250 and climb no problem. Once you hit 10k push the nose over for a 300-320kt climb.

I don't think the Maddog is like a true heavy that has to have the slats out up till around 280. Comming out of Charlotte, ATC has to cancel a 280 speed restriction.

As for the 250/10k rule, well... Been into North Dakota airports and had controllers tell us no speed restriction below 10,000, and this was on the descent. Ultimately, if this question went to court, I would think the PIC is required to adhere to FAR/AIM regardless of what ATC tells you. Just MHO.

I get my numbers from memory from over 4 years ago, so I'm not surprised if they aren't super accurate. I do remember that the clean maneuver speed was sometimes over 250 knots, so section d of the FAR's applied. The point is, you are allowed to fly 252 knots in your example.

 

[westwind driver]

I get my numbers from memory from over 4 years ago, so I'm not surprised if they aren't super accurate. I do remember that the clean maneuver speed was sometimes over 250 knots, so section d of the FAR's applied. The point is, you are allowed to fly 252 knots in your example.

Pretty good memory to be that close Of course you would probably agree most aircraft of the MD80 size are pretty close in numbers?

I went back a read my post, and sorry if it sounded a$$holish. Didn't mean to come across like that. I was more though questioning if slat retract speed is say, 200 kts, and clean maneuver speed is say 250 kts, what is there to say that you couldn't fly at 230 kts. Not that you would, but can you?

I have performance charts for several aircraft I do not fly, and have never flown. So my experience with this is somewhat new.

If someone could explain why pilots want to fly at clean maneuvering speed (other than having to keep slats/flaps extended) maybe I could get a better understanding.

My experience has been limited to V2+20 flaps up, climb at 250/.65

Does any of this have to do with say exceeding 15 degrees bank flaps/slats retracted? Because of VSL?

Good discussion here I think.

 

[stupidpilot]

CMS(Clean Maneuvering Speed) allows the aircraft to meet the final segment climb gradient. If you lose an engine the extra drag could really hurt your performance and get you in a whole lot of trouble.

 

[milky]

As a military pointy nose pilot, you are expected to operate at a speed that is reasonable for maneuverability and visibility over the nose. For the Hornet, 300-350 knots is defensible. It is true that we cannot be violated by the FAA. Only by the CNO.

 

[Singlecoil]

Pretty good memory to be that close Of course you would probably agree most aircraft of the MD80 size are pretty close in numbers?

I went back a read my post, and sorry if it sounded a$$holish. Didn't mean to come across like that. I was more though questioning if slat retract speed is say, 200 kts, and clean maneuver speed is say 250 kts, what is there to say that you couldn't fly at 230 kts. Not that you would, but can you?

I have performance charts for several aircraft I do not fly, and have never flown. So my experience with this is somewhat new.

If someone could explain why pilots want to fly at clean maneuvering speed (other than having to keep slats/flaps extended) maybe I could get a better understanding.

My experience has been limited to V2+20 flaps up, climb at 250/.65

Does any of this have to do with say exceeding 15 degrees bank flaps/slats retracted? Because of VSL?

Good discussion here I think.

No worries, mate
In the MD you were limited to 15 degrees of bank until you reached clean maneuver speed, so yes you could fly 230 clean.
Also, have you ever noticed that the flap retraction speeds on takeoff (when you are heavy) are lower than the flap extension speeds when you are landing and lighter? In a 737 you are retracting the flaps at about 190 heavy, then 3 hours later you have to extend the first notch before 200 or so. So yes, you can definitely fly slower than the published speeds. In the 737NG, the flap extension speed might be 200, but you are good to 40 degrees of bank (25 plus a 15 degree overshoot) to the top of the yellow arc, which is much slower.

 

[GCD]

The IAH Class B high speed climb experiment was contested by ALPA for a safety issue. Most bird strikes occur below 10,000' and most windscreens are tested and certified for bird strikes at 250 KIAS or less.

The B747, however, has a three inch thick windscreen because of the operational need to climb clean at 278 KIAS during the final segment climb, which is well below 10,000'.

 

[GittinFatter]

Some of you folks are only thinking about desending and some are only thinking about climbing. Both groups need to think about both climbing and decending to carry on an intelligent argument.
A 747 that is carrying any weight at all will usually have a clean speed above 250 on T/O. A max gross clean speed will be about 280kts on take-off. I have had controllers waive the Speed when they want an altitude first on a desent. Controllers are a represenative of the "administrator".

 

[Say Again Over]

We authorize heavies all the time

Sorry MK you don't have the authority to waive this regulation, the PIC does by applying the reg.

 

[ultrarunner]

Where do you get your numbers?

MD80 series (reference the -83 here) If you look at the charts, assuming MGTOW of 149,500#, using the 150,000# chart, 33 degress C at sea level, Altimeter 30.06, dry runway, no wind, Flaps 15

Here are your speeds:

V1: 143
VR: 147
V2: 154
Flap Retract: 169
Slat Retract: 202
Final Segment: 223
Clean Maneuver: 252

On the -80's the faster speeds down low after takeoff are typically in a -88 version with forward and aft aux tanks. With these, and loaded for LAX or SFO or SEA you'd approach 170,000 lbs for take-off, if I recall.

 

[Nevets]

"Public use", (military) aircraft are exempt from the FARs. Compliance is usually built into their SOP, they don't get violated by the FAA, just "THE BOSS".
PBR

From talking to one of them, they are required to follow Flight Rules in part 91 (91.151 to 91.193).

I have had controllers waive the Speed when they want an altitude first on a desent. Controllers are a represenative of the "administrator".

That controller was wrong. He/she is NOT a Designee of the Administrator. There is actually a list of regulations in the FARs that the Administrator can give a waiver for. Its a list of the regs that say, "Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator" in it just as the aircraft speed reg 91.117. Anyways, the list is in 91.905 and the policy and procedures to attain such waiver is in 91.903. It says, "The Administrator may issue a certificate of waiver authorizing the operation of aircraft in deviation from any rule listed in this subpart if the Administrator finds that the proposed operation can be safely conducted under the terms of that certificate of waiver." A controller CANNOT do what this reg says.

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I believe there was a case a couple years ago where 2 guys at an airshow lost their civilian certificates for a 91.117 violation.



So you say to a 744 on departure going to RJAA "Fly 280kts heading 360" or does the pilot advise you that is what he is doing. My understanding has always been the requirement is for the pilot to advise per AIM 4-4-12 there is no authorization from ATC. If you have this authority what was the logic for the IAH high speed departure test a couple years back?

This brings up a good point.....The pilot calls ground metering or clnc usually prior to the push and requests the longest available runway, indicates that they will be unable to comply with the altitude crossing restrictions contained in the ORD3 DP, and indicates they need a high speed climb which is usually 280KTS, we note it on the strip and coordinate it with the tracon.

 

[Nevets]

If you have this authority what was the logic for the IAH high speed departure test a couple years back?

I beleive the logic was that everyone could exceed 250 below 10 regardless of operational necessity. Everyone from an RJ to an A380 could do it.

 

[Flyin2low]

This brings up a good point.....The pilot calls ground metering or clnc usually prior to the push and requests the longest available runway, indicates that they will be unable to comply with the altitude crossing restrictions contained in the ORD3 DP, and indicates they need a high speed climb which is usually 280KTS, we note it on the strip and coordinate it with the tracon.

Maybe the company has a Certificate of Waiver issued by the ADMINISTRATOR hanging on their wall?

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

No, I don't think it is that but can't confirm it but I do know there are aircraft that need the speed to climb. The 744 to my recog are the only ones I remember doing it but the heavy heavy Asia flights typically request 280kts. ORD can't be the only facility out there doing this. Id like a 747 pilot to chime in here but doubt they read this side of the board. The though process is if you need it you need it. Its done more often then you think.

 

[flyboy9967]

On the 74 classic we almost always need a high speed climb to keep the flaps up, unless we are really light. Really we don't even need to ask because of the exemption that says something about 250 or min clean speed whichever is higher. At least thats what I was told. On landing, even when at a max weight of 633, our min clean speed is still below 250, around 230 to 240 so we can always fly 250 without flaps.

 

[eelb53]

As a military pointy nose pilot, you are expected to operate at a speed that is reasonable for maneuverability and visibility over the nose. For the Hornet, 300-350 knots is defensible. It is true that we cannot be violated by the FAA. Only by the CNO.

True, but the FAA can report a violation to the CNO. Don't know how it is now, but I'm aware that ANG fighters use to fly into NAS Glenview, in the northern Chicago burbs, and ORD approach would violate them for Class B (TCA in those days) violations occasionally. Usually the Glenview Ops O would "talk" to the pilot and it would go no further. Still, it doesn't make the military pilot immune to the FAA.

 

[Beefy Botham]

The 744 climb speed is Vref 30 +100 or 250kts, whichever is higher. Vref 30 at max gross weight (397 tonnes) is approx 182kts. We routinely climb at 300 to 330kts below 10000 feet in other parts of the world, approved by ATC of course.

 

[detwilers]

Is there a speed restriction for departing aricraft in Canada? I was given a max forward speed once below 10,000 and was not sure at the time. Later I asked several people and most said you could go as fast as you want when departing and that was clearly spelled out in the CAR's. I don't have a copy of the Canadian regs so not 100% on this one.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

You hear the 744's ask for 280 often leaving DTW on their way to Asia.
As for Canada, you can climb out at whatever speed you want after being cleared to climb at/above 10000 even if you are still below 10