2 Pilot Flt. Dept's.

[Ultraman]

Gulfstream 200 brought up an interesting topic in another thread where he said that two man flight departments are impossible.

Those of you with experience in two man departments, what do you think? And those of you who have gone on to larger departments, what's the good, bad and ugly of your experience?

 

[2000flyer]

It really depends on the operation. Is the two man deparment flying 200 hours a year or 800? Is it strictly business flying or mostly personal flying for an owner. The latter will possibily include many overnights depending if the owner has places of interest for vacation / personal use.

I flew in a 3-man department that could have easily been done with two. Mostly a shuttle type operation, very few overnights and if we did RON, it was usually for less than 3-days at a time.

I've never worked for a department with more than five pilot's so I doubt that quailifies for a response on a "large" department. There were times that at five we were over-staffed when flying got slow. During our peak, five worked out very well and provided a balance of day trips to longer runs.

Regards,

2000Flyer

 

[Citationkid]

My mom was chief/only pilot for a 2 airplane flight department flying a King Air 200 and Baron and never had any big problems. Now she works at a two pilot flight department (three includeing me ) and doesn't seem to have a problem. I guess that doesn't answer your question, but I'm kinda bored so I figured I'd post this any way.

 

[Rick1128]

Several years ago a good friend and I did the initial start-up of a single plane (LR25C) corporate operation. Just two pilots, us. Flew over 900 hours the first year. It was almost strictly used as a corporate tool, lots of overnights. Company treated us reasonable well. We were treated as part of the team. After 18 months, we added a HS125 and another pilot. So we had two 2 pilot airplanes and three pilots on staff. We used part time pilots as necessary. Flew approximately 1000 hours that year.

It is do-able, but you have to have a readily handy list of part-times to call on as necessary. And in today's insurance market, they have to be insurance qualified.

And the employer has to be flexible in his requirements.

 

[Citationkid]

900 hours a year! Wow. Did you fly every day.

 

[captainv]

Shoot, I flew as a contract pilot for a couple of one-man flight departments in the days before 9/11, after all the corporate guys took off for the airlines.

i flew as part of a two-man department twice, a year in a LR-31A and a LR-25. on the 31, we flew all the time, gome almost every weekend, but the company spared no expense on the road as they knew they were working us hard. totally different on the LR-25, hardly any overnights, flew 2-3 days a week if we were lucky. the owner was very good to us, but he just didn't need to fly all that much.

i didn't consider either outfit anything more than a stepping stone, and they knew that when they hired me. but they were great jobs that got me what i wanted (flight time for the LR-31 and a steady paycheck on the LR-25). the biggest single factor is the attitude of the chief pilot. he makes the difference in whether or not it'll be a good place to work.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Its not impossible (2 pilot) but it ONLY works with very liberal use of vendor pilots. But by then you might as well hire a full timer yourself.

I have done 2 pilot deals, 2 pilot plus vendor, 3 pilot plus vendor, and large department. By far large department is the best....but its not just the number of guys - its the whole job. I think its all just career progression through charter 135 and on to corporate.

The 2 pilot only jobs tend to be stepping stone. Good for a newbie but burnout is quick....sorry but a guy with a family and/or a life cant schedule his life around the "company jet" schedule. These type of owners tend to think you are on "vacation" as you sit with them in some resort...cool for a few trips but then very old...another favorite was hearing about owners who wanted you to take your vacation during scheduled maintenance. NICE. they tend to be mad at you if you NEED a hard day to schedule something...and many expect you to cx it all when they need to go somewhere...it just gets old..

From my limited experience - the absolute WORST is the 2 pilot operation that is on a 135 management certificate. Fly for the owner to some golf resort then pick up a few charters to "justify" the airplane during the week....just does not work as a career job.

But hey, some of these gigs are great opportunities to grab some type ratings, get some PIC time as a young guy, then take that experience and move on to the better job!

Work hard, get what you can out of it, say thanks, and MOVE ON !!!!

 

[English]

Wow. Gulfstream 200, you hit a little close to home for me.

What's worse than a two pilot operation on a 135 certificate? How about a one pilot operation on a 135 certificate? I'm in the position where if I am unavailable, the company can't make money, because I'm the only 135 qual'd pilot in the company on my aircraft. On the other hand, I'm only flying 8-10 days a month on average right now. The problem is, I don't know which days, so I can't take those 20 other days and go out of town.

Then again, if I weren't griping, you wouldn't be able to tell I am a pilot...

 

[aeronautic1]

The worst? Two man crew base posted with a Lear 25/35 (or 4 with 2) air ambulance. Especially Florida in the winter (cruise ship casualties). 100 hours a month. $hitty salary. No hard days off. Company insisting that you bust return duty time part 91 (if you go out 135 then the return is 135 if the aircraft is paid for). Company always calling you in the middle of the 10 hour "rest period" to bitch about something (usually when you're in REM). You write up the airplane and nothing ever gets fixed (gee, a radar would certainly come in handy this month! Windshield heat to keep the cabin below 090). Foreign wannabe pilots that the company sends you that can't run the radios, ATC can't understand and can't brief an approach (hey, I am NOT paid to be an American Flyers CFI). And on the subject of 10 hour rest periods: Just how much beer can you drink in 2 hours? Heck, it takes me 2 hours for the Viagra to kick in!!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

I'm on a two man Falcon 900, part 135, available 7 days a week. We used to have 4 pilots when we were part 91 only. Seems strange that when we go strictly 135, we can only have two of us. Needless to say, I have no life.

 

[JayDub]

And on the subject of 10 hour rest periods: Just how much beer can you drink in 2 hours? Heck, it takes me 2 hours for the Viagra to kick in!!

OK, I am by no means an expert. However, it seems to me you are doing something wrong here! Why do you care if you can still dink after the viagara kicks in? Are you romancing your beer can, or what?

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.


JayDub

 

[jet newbie]

Flew approximately 1000 hours that year.

I bet you saved some serious cash not having to pay rent/house payment.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

2 pilots 135?

yes, all the scumbag 135 operators push owners to have 2 pilots to "save money". work em to death and let them move on. Another will come along - no worries.

 

[flywithruss]

I'm in a two pilot, single airplane operation right now. It works OK because we are low-utilization ... the department averaged 300 hours a year for several years, but has been around 200 the last couple. Strictly Part 91, corporate, good mix of RONs and day trips, mix of weekends and weekday trips. Being a slave to the beeper isn't fun, but they're reasonable. During the week we belong to the company, but if we make advance weekend plans and a trip pops up they'll get a contract pilot, so we have SOME flexibility. Two full weeks of vacation also helps out ... I've had my Thanksgivings and Christmases since starting this job, as well as a week skiing in Europe, so I can't complain TOO much. I'd like to have some hard days off ... but then, I'd also rather be flying about 400 a year. This is too slow for my taste.

As English said ... if I wasn't b!tching about something, nobody could tell I'm a pilot.

R

 

[na265]

We are a 4 pilot dept. We will fly 850hrs this year. We each work 2-3 days a week with some RON's, mostly day trips and company shuttles. I think it would almost be impossble to have a life in a 2 pilot dept if you fly more than 300hrs a year.