135 - What it really takes

[minitour]

My mother and father in law have come to me asking about starting up (as they call it) "an airline". I'm sure they mean charter and not a "scheduled" airline...

I told them about all the papework and tried giving them the "don't do it" and similar answers...but now I'm curious...

What does it take?

Lets say you got ambitious and bought a 421 and decided, "hey...I can charter it out and pay for it that way"...

What would you be looking at? If anyone has ever done that (started up a 135 with one plane) could you PM me? Is it reasonable to think you could actually break even (fuel, insurance, hangar, etc...)?

Thanks for the info folks!

-mini

 

[GravityHater]

Mini,
A friend looked into it here. He said it was really difficult, to the point of impossible. BUT he said what was easy was to acquire someone else's operating certificate - you just buy someone elses' s 135 company and slide right in. Well its not that easy.
HOWEVER when he got looking around, there were only too many current operators more than willing to sell out. Which tells you there is not much to be made in the business. Must be all those darned airlines with their cut-rate fares making it hard for the little guy (oops -Im outta here)

 

[Vik]

The easiest way to make a million dollars in aviation?








Start with two

 

[Vik]

Seriously though, I know someone that was hired to start up a 135 op in SoCal. Lots of work, paperwork, he had to create a huge binder of SOPs and what not ..

Wouldn't be worth it if you're trying to use this as a way to build cheap flight time.

 

[SPBRIAN]

My Uncle is setting up a 135 operation out of Vegas, small twin for hops to california. It's taken him a couple of years of part time work on it and aproximately 6+ months of hard work to get it through, last I spoke with him was on Thanksgiving and he said he'll have it all pushed through for March. For him he doesn't want it to make money, he's looking for a way to fly his airplane on somebody else's dime, so that should help you to decide if it's worth it or not. ;-)

-Brian

 

[JAFI]

What does it take to start a 135 operation?

Money (lots of) and talent (people who really know the business). Most airline failures lack one or both. Money is first. With out money you cannot hire the correct talent.

As far as talent, there many "professionals" out there who can sell a man his own dog but, for example can they answer this question:

There is an emergency AD on your aircraft. You have 72 hours to complete the AD or you are grounded. List all the steps, in order?

If their answer dos not contain at least some of the following, they are blowing smoke...
You need to address the AD, ensure aircraft conformity, order parts if needed, schedule maintenance, re-write the manuals, job cards, etc. if needed, ensure procedure changes show consistancy across all effected manuanls, re-write the training program and re-train your employees if needed, publish any changes and ensure all required manual holders have these changes prior to any flight, reschedule any flights, ensure the authority and responcability of all actions follow your company policy and procedures, ... and already have these policy and procedures in your manuals and be able to write everythng into an understandable and easy to use and easy to find manual system.

Are you sure you want to start a 135 operation????

JAFI.
If so try this link:

http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/tpa/135home.html


A while back Mini you made the statement that you "Wouldn't even piss on an FAA Inspector if he were on fire".

I do want to thank you because since your statement I have avoided all pissing contests and open fires. I'm not sure you would have the water volume required and I am not into golden showers. But to let you know I think the proper procedure is to have the flameee drop to the ground and smother the fire by rolling or being covered by clothing or what ever is handy.
I do so enjoy reading your posts...
Good Luck on your aviation career and the 135 certificate.

 

[GravityHater]

Don't forget the insurance. I would price that first. It is not optional. And it may well be breathtaking.

 

[User546]

Don't forget the insurance. I would price that first. It is not optional. And it may well be breathtaking.

I have a good friend of mine who was attempting to create a 135 company a couple years ago. After over a year of full-time FAA paperwork, forming his own LLC company, and getting his airplane in order and up to speed, the Feds were going to require him to have $1 million per seat in his aircraft, whether it was occupied or not. Since he was going to use a C210, that was going to be $6 million "people" insurance, and that didnt even include the hull and loss insurance.

That was the final deal killer for him. To some people that might not be a lot, but when you start paying that kind of insurance, you have to be very honest with yourself about how much market really is out there for you to be able to start getting all your money back.

 

[FN FAL]

Mini, you might want to consider buying a plane that would be easily placed on someone else's certificate...IE a leaseback. Then you only have to provide the plane, the risk and cost of ownership and the insurance. If you leaseback to a 135 operator, you will probably be lucky to enjoy a tax relief for your efforts...for some that is incentive enough. For others, it will mean tens of thousands of dollars closer to being in the poor house.

Look into lease backing on a 135...that may mean buying a plane to suit their certificate, but it is...what it is.

 

[minitour]

Thanks guys...I just printed this out so I can show it to them...

They're looking for a "hobby" when they retire (next few years for him, whenever for her). They both make plenty of cash and from what I've talked to them about, they've got enough saved up to buy a decent plane ($6-7MM and they were still going "oh what else can we get?").

Anyway, thanks...maybe I can finally get them off of me so I can figure out these darned "steep spirals"!

Take care all and Happy New Year.

-mini

 

[Propsfullfwd]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=480702#post480702

Try this link...

Props

 

[jimpilot]

We did it a few years ago. Airplane was going from corporate jet to personal jet (G4). Our local FSDO offered to help and even detail an inspector to our hanger to help us with it all. (They wanted the complexity points bad, affects their GS ratings I guess).

But after looking it all over we decided to sign on as a certificate rider with Wayfarer (now gone). They weren't the cheapest in their costs but seemed to be the best run. It worked out so well we were showing a profit. Owner had to upgrade to GV because he had to depreate the G4 so fast to cover our profit.

I decided to leave for the training business, but the aircraft is still going strong and they are looking at upgrading to a G550 for the same reasons.

Bottom line is if you do it right, sign on with a high end charter company, and run your operation well, it can work very well. But it takes all of the above and a little luck to not turn the large fortune into a small fortune as the old joke goes.

 

[340drvr]

Don't forget the insurance. I would price that first. It is not optional. And it may well be breathtaking.

GH has the bottom line factor figured. In a twin such as a 421, to upgrade your insurance from Part 91 private flying (whether corporate or personal), to 135 charter for hire on-demand, I'd guess you may be looking at 2 to 3 times the insurance cost, all assuming the pilot meets insurance minimums.
This means you'd better be moving those (expensive) GTSO driven props a whole lot of hours to cover the extra insurance overhead. I think the idea that getting a plane on 135 "to help pay for tires and oil-changes" is a myth if you aren't using the plane on revenue flights quite a bit. Maybe somebody who's done this can chime in with actual numbers.

 

[jetbluedog]

Insurance requirements = FORGET IT

Unless your DADDY forks it out like every other unappreciatative SOB in this industry.

 

[FN FAL]

Thanks guys...I just printed this out so I can show it to them...

They're looking for a "hobby" when they retire (next few years for him, whenever for her). They both make plenty of cash and from what I've talked to them about, they've got enough saved up to buy a decent plane ($6-7MM and they were still going "oh what else can we get?").

Anyway, thanks...maybe I can finally get them off of me so I can figure out these darned "steep spirals"!

Take care all and Happy New Year.

-mini

So mini, why don't you have them buy something like a PC-12 or a King Air. Then have them set it up in a leasing company.

Then you set your corporation up as "minitour" pilot services.

It's legal, consult an aviation attorney.

You're allowed to hire yourself out to fly peoples airplanes...even if those people lease them. I'd look into it with an experienced aviation attorney. It only takes proper structuring and documentation.