135 to Destination with no wx reporting

[Kansan]

Question: Are 135 On Demand operators allowed to legally fly to a destionation that has no weather reporting services?

 

[Sc00ter]

Yep. But you need an approved exception in your ops spec.

scoot

 

[Rick1128]

There was a regulation change in November, allowing that if the flight crew met certain requirements. I have not seen any requirements for OpSpecs for it in either the regs or Order 8400.10. Plus our PIO has not said anything about requiring OpSpecs for it. Scooter, if your information is from November, you might want to check on it again. The FAA had a large meeting witrh just about every POI in the country to explain the reg changes in mid November.

 

[eddie]

Rick,

Can you summarize those requirements? Or do you perhaps have a link to the reg?

Thanks

 

[mike1mc]

The reg was part of the 135 changes that went through with Part 91, Subpart K (Fractional Ownership). The new reg basically says you can go into an airport without weather reporting provided you can obtain a local altimeter setting and you are a "qualified" air carrier. I forget the actual terminology, but there is a list of criteria (two pilots, certain equipment, etc). Do a search on subpart K, I know there was a lot of discussion of the qualifications as many thought they were new requirements for all 135 aircraft (but they are not). As far as I know, this will not be included in any Ops Specs as it is an FAR, but they may update the current approved weather sources Ops Specs.

While on the subject, has anybody seen any criteria in order to use the new regs allowing for short runways under 135 (80% rule vs. 60% rule). I know you must have an airport performance program, but I haven't seen any guidance. I have been told that this will not be a study as required by 121 ops, but instead an approved program that your pilots will follow in determining aircraft performance at a specific airport with specific conditions. Just curious.

 

[Prof. ATP]

These are called "Eligible On Demand Operations". The basic requirement is two-pilot crew, destination altimeter setting, and alternate with weather reporting; there are some technical details as well.

Our POI claims that we will need an Op Specs change (no idea what paragraph number, or whether it's enroute or terminal) PLUS changes to the Ops Manual PLUS a training module.

I've developed the procedures for our company but am waiting for the CP to submit it to the FAA. PM me if you want more info.

 

[jergar999]

1) New section 135.4 defines an eligible on-demand operation. Eligible on-demand operators will be allow greater latitude in IFR operations at airports without weather reporting and Turbojet landing distances under certain conditions.

For multi-engine turbine aircraft, an operation is an "eligible" operation if:
a) It is a two-pilot operation
b) The PIC as a minimum of 1500 hours experience and an ATP rating with applicable type rating
c) The SIC has a minimum of 500 hours experience and a commercial pilot and instrument rating
d) If the SIC has fewer than 100 hours in make and model and the PIC is not an appropriately qualified check pilot, the PIC will make all Takeoffs and Landings if:

(i) Landings at the destination airport when a Destination Airport Analysis is required by Sec. 135.385(f); and

(ii) In any of the following conditions:
(A) The prevailing visibility for the airport is at or below 3/4 mile.
(B) The runway visual range for the runway to be used is at or below 4,000 feet.
(C) The runway to be used has water, snow, slush, ice, or similar contamination that may adversely affect aircraft performance.

(D) The braking action on the runway to be used is reported to be less than ``good.''
(E) The crosswind component for the runway to be used is in excess of 15 knots.
(F) Windshear is reported in the vicinity of the airport.
(G) Any other condition in which the pilot in command determines it to be prudent to exercise the pilot in command's authority.

e) The crew pairing must be such that either the PIC or SIC has at list 75 hours in the aircraft make and model.

Comments: The above criteria only apply if you are conducting an operation that is authorized for eligible on-demand operatiors (see the listings below).

2) 135.225 is amended to allow an "eligible" air carrier to make an approach to an airport without approved weather reporting provided:

a) An approved source of waether is available at the alternate airport.
b) That facility includes a local altimeter for the destination airport or the approach plate provides procedures for an alternative altimeter setting.

Comments: This option is available only to "eligible" carriers. You are eligible if you meet the requiremants above.

Please note that this may set you up for a scenerio in which you can arrive at an airport but not depart.

Under this rule the old adage "If you can get in, you can get out" does no longer applies.

3) 135.247 is amended to allow PIC night currency to be accomplished by alternative means.
The amended is not restricted to eligible crews however it is only applicable to aircraft type certified for two pilots.

Night currency (3 night landing in the last 90 days) will be satisfied provided:
a) The pilot has at least 1500 hours of experience
b) The pilot must have logged at least 15 hours in type in the last 90 days
c) The pilot must have satisfied the day currency requirements (3 landing in the last 90 days)

and either
1) Satisfied the night currency requirements in a different aircraft type certified for two pilots
or
2) Logged 6 takeoffs and 6 landings at night in the last 12 moths at a Part 142 training center in a simulator representative of a turbine powered

aircraft certified for two pilots.


4) 135.385 The 60% Landing distance may be increased for eligible operators provide:
1) They have completed an approved Destination Airport Analysis and
2) The operation is approved by operations specifications.

 

[Otter]

"Eligiable on demand operations" are an to amendment to A specs, A057 in specific. There is a job aid available for the POI's, we asked and got a copy last week.

 

[NoPax]

Link to the job aid.

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:wdNUMEmhj0YJ:web.nbaa.org/public/ops/part135/jbada057.pdf

 

[pilothouston123]

Please set me straight if I am wrong. If you are flying to an airport without weather you can land there if you are in VFR weater. You can get there a couple of ways.
AIRWAYS
: where you can decend to the MDA and then go to the airport VFR. Or under radar coverage MVA. and see the airport. ONe company has it in company specs that you must be VFR within 10 miles of the airport.

YOu cannot shoot an approach into and airport without the full ASOS, I belive that is the simple answer to the thread.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Yes, you can shoot an instrument approach to that airport WITHOUT ANY weather reporting. That is the whole point. That's also why you're required to have an alternate that meets all the criteria, and HAS weather reporting.

Cliff
GRB

 

[NoPax]

Hi!

Yes, you can shoot an instrument approach to that airport WITHOUT ANY weather reporting. That is the whole point. That's also why you're required to have an alternate that meets all the criteria, and HAS weather reporting.

Cliff
GRB

As an eligable on-demand operator...

 

[CelticCitation]

Prof. ATP,

The paper work has been submitted, and is far short of what will finally be required. Considering that an MEL takes 13 months to turn around, it hasn't been a priority. Airports are getting weather reporting faster than we are getting stuff back from our POI.

All-

I don't have the stuff with me, but there are two seperate ops specs changes that go along with EOD operations. The first authorizes EOD, the second would authorize an airport analysis program. You can get approval for EOD and opt not to use the 80%, and only need the one page. The IOPPS has some pretty good guidance material if you click on the appropriate op specs number. These guidance materials (AC's, job aids, HBAT's) are most often more useful than info from a fed or maybe even from FI.

 

[100LL... Again!]

celtic-

what is IOPPS?

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"YOu cannot shoot an approach into and airport without the full ASOS, I belive that is the simple answer to the thread."


No, that is not really the simple answer to the thread.......Once again: if you are approved by the FAA as an "eligible on-demand operator," you do NOT have to have weather reporting at your destination.

 

[hawkerjet]

I think for the sake of brevity, pilothouston123 has the best way to get in to an airport with no wx reporting. i use to do this to get into SMO before it had wx reporting. i'd file to a fix on the vor approach and if i saw the field i'd land and if not go to my alternate, VNY. we also did the same thing to Carson City NV. we'd file to Reno and request lower to the MEA. if we saw the field we'd divert to our alternate, carson city. hope that helps

 

[CelticCitation]

100LL-

IOPPS is the industry opps network where your ops specs live. You can access it from the internet to make changes to, or view your op specs. Your CP or DO, or someone else in your company can access, but without going into too much detail, as there is a lot of training that goes along with it, each paragraph available from the op spec master list has all associated help that should go with each paragraph. Adding or modifying within op specs are not as simple a process as it appears from reading the regs. You must meet all the requirements of all the associated job aids or HBATS, etc. which can be hundreds of pages long. Then any other associated documents or manuals need to be submitted and approved, often a training program has to be submitted and approved, and then finally, whatever tracking system your manuals use must be submitted and approved. That is assuming that your POI does not come up with other requirements that only need to make sense to him. So as you can see, it can be a lot more complicated process than just submitting a letter of request.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Let me just try to clarify and simplify...the short answer is yes.

Here is how.

If the airport has an approved approach procedure, you have two possibilities.

1. For airports where the approach has an altimeter setting from another airport listed as an approved setting you may use that setting to fly the approach (assuming you are an eligible operator).

Example MQY ILS 32

Notice that in the notes it mentions using the Nashville altimeter setting rather than the Smyrna altimeter if the Smyrna altimeter setting cannot be obtained.

2. For airports that do not list an altimeter setting, you must consider that airport to be a VFR airport. Therefore, you treat it the same way, the forecast for that area must be such that you can make a descent from the MEA to the airport in VMC conditions.

In both cases you must list an alternate, regardless of the weather conditions.

Airports with out an approach procedure, then the descent from the MEA blah blah blah....all applies.

I hope that helps.