135 lquestion

[minimums]

We all know that filing to an airport without instrument approaches is not legal under 135. We can file to a point nearby our intended airport, but can we legally change our destination in flight and land at this airport under IFR rules OR should we always cancel IFR and proceed VFR.

My interpretation is we need to cancel and proceed VFR.

 

[soarby007]

I'm new to this, but where does it say you can't file to an airport without an instrument approach?

 

[guido411]

I don't know if you can file to an airport that doesn't have an approach. I kind of thought you could if you can make the decent from the MEA to the airport under VFR (we land at airports that are VFR all the time while on an IFR flight plan). I might be wrong but I think this is the same type of deal. Last week we had to go to an airport where the forecast was below minimums for the approach, but only in a TEMPorary remark. We filed to a nearby airport that had an ILS, then got close and found the weather was at/above mins at our desired field. We changed our destination about 100 miles out and shot the approach all under IFR. CA told us that was the way to do it.

 

[Rattler71]

I don't know if you can file to an airport that doesn't have an approach. I kind of thought you could if you can make the decent from the MEA to the airport under VFR.

I agree.

 

[transpac]

135.215 seems to require an IAP.

 

[soarby007]

Well I go to a few VFR only airports and have filed IFR under part 91 or 135. You are right, the catch is descending to the lowest MEA for the area and being able to do a visual approach. I don't know of any reason why you can't file IFR to an airport that has no instrument approach. I don't think that because you file IFR in VMC conditions that it is required that there be an instrument approach to be in existence. Seems that if you can go VFR, then why can't you file an IFR flight plan?
When asked by the controller as to what approach I'm planning, I tell them a visual. Now it isn't practical or legal if you have no chance of making a visual approach and requires some examination of the weather to see about the possibility of proceeding in VMC conditions.

Anyway I was just curious as to the reason why you can't legally file IFR to a VFR airport? Never heard of that before.

 

[El Chupacabra]

If no Inst approach you need an alternate airport that does. Opspecs.

Is there weather reporting?

Now thats another question.

 

[Rattler71]

If no Inst approach you need an alternate airport that does. Opspecs.

Is there weather reporting?

Now thats another question.

A lot of different operators have different ops specs. So another company ops may be different than yours.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

Is there weather reporting?

Now thats another question.

When I was flying 135 I ran into this a bunch. The one that comes to mind was an early morning flight to MMU (Morristown, NJ). They didn't start reporting weather until 8am. Had an FO who insisted we couldn't depart for MMU without weather. We did have a good idea of the weather though as TEB and EWR were 10+ and clear. And the area forcast was more of the same everywhere.

Without having the regs in front of me, I believe that this type of weather information (area forcasts ect.) is acceptable to depart towards your destination. Local weather is only needed to shoot an instrument approach.

 

[milehigh6080]

Disclaimer, I'm just learning this stuff, so be forewarned, but here's what I know (or think i know)

Its my understanding that you can't operate IFR under any circumstance into a field without weather reporting (AWOS-3, ASOS, ATIS, Weather observer). You can file to an airport that does have weather reporting but lacks an approach, but you must have an alternate that meets all your other alternate minimums in your ops specs. The only caveat here is that if there is weather reporting, it has to be reporting above your minimums or forecast to be above your minimums at the time of your departure. If your departure and ETA are within the hour, you can use a METAR, otherwise you have to use a TAF or Area Foreast

If the weather is nice and there is no approach or weather reporting, you can still file to a nearby place, as was suggested, and then cancel and proceed VFR as long as the airport that you want to land at is reporting VFR at the time. It could be clear and a million, but if their trusty 'ol ASOS is reporting 200 and 1/4, you can't go whether you're VFR or not.

Hope that helps
Milehigh

 

[fracflyer]

To depart to a field IFR you just need some weather (area forecast, etc) that says that the weather is going to be above mins. If there are no approaches then the wx is going to have to be VFR so you can shoot a visual approach.


FAR 135. 219
Do not begin a flight under IFR or begin an
IFR or over-the-top operation unless the
latest weather reports or forecasts, or any
combination thereof, indicate weather conditions
at the estimated time of arrival at
the next airport of intended landing will be
at or above authorized IFR landing minimums.

Now once you get there, you can't actually begin a IFR approach unless there's wx on the field that tells you it's above mins. If it's VFR then you can make that determination and conduct a visual approach.

FAR 135.213(b)
Weather observations made and furnished
to pilots to conduct IFR operations at an
airport must be taken at the airport where
those IFR operations are conducted,
unless the Administrator issues operations
specifications allowing the use of weather
observations taken at a location not at the
airport where the IFR operations are conducted.

There is one exception though, if your alternate airport has wx reporting and you can get an altimeter setting you can BEGIN an approach at an airport without weather reporting (your destination). However you can not begin the FINAL approach segment. (This could help you get low enough to get a visual approach)

FAR 135.225(b): Pilots may BEGIN an instrument
approach procedure to an airport
without an approved weather reporting facility
if:
• The alternate airport has an approved
weather reporting facility and:
• The latest weather report issued by the
reporting facility includes a current local
altimeter setting for the destination airport.
• If no local altimeter setting for the destination
airport is available, the pilot
may use the current altimeter setting
provided by the facility designated on
the approach chart for the destination
airport.

FAR 135.225(c):
No pilot may begin the final approach segment
of an instrument approach procedure
to an airport unless the latest weather reported
by the facility described in paragraph
(a)(1) of this section indicates that
weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that
procedure.

How about that?

 

[minimums]

To depart to a field IFR you just need some weather (area forecast, etc) that says that the weather is going to be above mins. If there are no approaches then the wx is going to have to be VFR so you can shoot a visual approach.


FAR 135. 219
Do not begin a flight under IFR or begin an
IFR or over-the-top operation unless the
latest weather reports or forecasts, or any
combination thereof, indicate weather conditions
at the estimated time of arrival at
the next airport of intended landing will be
at or above authorized IFR landing minimums.

What if there is NO approach at the airport? 135.219 doesn't seem to apply here, since there are NO IFR landing minimums published.

 

[HMR]

FWIW-Weather reporting doesn't have to be ASOS, AWOS etc. We used to fly PT135 into a dirt strip surrounded by mountains to pick up park rangers. We gave them a topo map and a weather reporting lesson. They would call us with ceiling and visibility reports based on how much of the surrounding hills they could see from the strip. It worked great and the Feds signed it off in our OpSpecs. At another airport (served by two IAP's but no ASOS) we had a guy who lived on the airport property who we would call for weather. Again, it was signed off in our OpSpecs. When the weather was bad we were the only PT135 operator who could legally land there.

 

[soarby007]

135.215 addresses the requirement of operating limitations at the airport or outside of controlled airspace there must be an approach. Obviously you cannot operate under IFR if the airport does not have an approach.

I don't see where this prohibits filing a flight plan to an airport that has no approach and the conditions are VFR and no weather reporting. The key word seems to be 'at', not 'to'. This seems to make sense in that it addresses an issue of filing IFR to an airport where you think you can make up your own approach, which I suppose someone probably has tried to do over the last 100 years, or use an unapproved approach procedure.

The idea of filing to a nearby airport with an approved approach and cancelling and diverting doesn't make any sense. The intention is the same from the beginning, so why do all this stuff. If the weather is marginal I would not recommend trying it anyway. If you can file a flight plan to a point in space, which was suggested, then what's the difference? That point in space has no approach or weather reporting either.

135.219 is a similar situation. If the weather forecasts, reports indicate severe VFR, and the intention is to arrive VFR then this does not apply. Likewise with 135.225

135.213 allows the pilot to obtain whatever weather based on his own observations or those of other persons competent to supply.

OpsSpec C077 addresses the arrival in the terminal area under IFR or VFR and you follow the rules there as to whether the airport is controlled or uncontrolled, etc.

I still read this as being legally able to file to a non-IFR, no weather airport as long as you can determine the weather is VFR. Destination weather at the field must be obtained under 135.219; 217,and 225, which are all involving IFR operations. You cannot conduct IFR operations at that airport of arrival if there is no weather, however. You either accept the visual under C077 or cancel under those same provisions. If the intention is to conduct a VFR operation upon arrival,then I don't see where the weather applies, except under 135.213(a)

If you operate under OpsSpec C077, which most do, then Terminal arrival VFR allows you to cancel.

The conflict I see in C077 is that the first paragraph states that all turbojets are to be operated under IFR, which the exceptions of the Terminal arrival IFR and Terminal arrival VFR.

Please help me understand the falacy of this argument. Some of you out there obviously have more experience than me on this.

 

[guido411]

*Warning-gratuitous use of parentheses ahead*

I think all this discussion about weather stuff is NA to minimums original question. I assumed minimums was a FLOPs pilot, just since he's asking about 135 regs immediately after we've gone 135 (NJA goes by 91k). If this is true then the weather stuff IS NA because our OpsSpecs allow us to file to (use) and airport without reported weather. So long as we have fuel to go to (and file) an alternate that meets all the requirements of 135 alternates (including weather reporting).

I still haven't seen anything that convinces me we can't file to an airport that doesn't have an IAP. 135.215 only implies operating "under IFR" or less than 1000'-3 miles for takeoff and landing (definition of IFR conditions). Arrive at the the airport (I'd have an alternate on file) and if you can't see the field at the MEA you've done what you can. Go to Plan B.

And as with any OpSpecs there are many exemptions given to different operators (weather reporting, flight in uncontrolled airspace, DAAPs for reducing required runways, use of pilots wearing clown outfits, etc), the .225 rule being one of those for FLOPs as we don't need weather to start the approach.

 

[fly4free]

FAR 135.225(c):
No pilot may begin the final approach segment
of an instrument approach procedure
to an airport unless the latest weather reported
by the facility described in paragraph
(a)(1) of this section indicates that
weather conditions are at or above the authorized IFR landing minimums for that
procedure.

How about that?

You were sooo close...but you must have quoted an '03 Reg Book...Paragragh (c) reads:
(c) If a pilot has begun the final approach segment of an instrument approach to an airport under paragraph (b) of this section, and the pilot receives a later weather report indicating that conditions have worsened to below the minimum requirements, then the pilot may continue the approach only if the requirements of §91.175(l) of this chapter, or both of the following conditions, are met—

(1) The later weather report is received when the aircraft is in one of the following approach phases:

(i) The aircraft is on an ILS final approach and has passed the final approach fix;

(ii) The aircraft is on an ASR or PAR final approach and has been turned over to the final approach controller; or

(iii) The aircraft is on a nonprecision final approach and the aircraft—

(A) Has passed the appropriate facility or final approach fix; or

(B) Where a final approach fix is not specified, has completed the procedure turn and is established inbound toward the airport on the final approach course within the distance prescribed in the procedure; and

(2) The pilot in command finds, on reaching the authorized MDA or DH, that the actual weather conditions are at or above the minimums prescribed for the procedure being used.


Paragragh (b) states you may begin even if there is no WX report...but that still doesn't answer the original question. They just changed these 135 regs when they added Subpart K. However a lot of Ops Specs have not been updated to reflect this new rule and prohibit "Terminal Instrument Procedures" without having WX on the field.

Yes you may file IFR to an airport without an IAP as long as your Ops Specs don't prohibit it...FAR 91.169 REQUIRES an alternate with an IAP if you do file to airport without IAP.

Hope I didn't muddy the waters.

Fly

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

Fly is right... provided you are an “eligible on-demand operation.” See 135.4.

 

[fly4free]

Fly is right... provided you are an “eligible on-demand operation.” See 135.4.

yeah they made things complicated when they added all that "Eligible" wording...I still have trouble figuring those out...thankfully I don't need to very often.

Fly

 

[Clutch_Cargo]

yeah they made things complicated when they added all that "Eligible" wording...
Fly

Agreed... they never make it easier, do they?!

 

[Hawk Driver]

NJA has been designated an "FAR Part 135 eligible, on-demand operation." It is now in our Ops Specs. We fly under parts: 91, 91K and 135.

HD