135 Duty day

[A Squared]

I know its splitting hairs, but that part of reg merely states that you cn exceed your flight time limitations if they occur within a 14 hour duty day, IMO it doesn't state that there is a max 14 hour duty period.

That's not my understanding of the regulation. Now admitidly, my understanding may be a little flawed. I've never flown 135, and reading 135.267 makes my head hurt, but .......My understanding is that an operator could chose either 135.267 (b) or 135 (c)

Under 135.267 (b) A pilot would be limited to 8 hours (assuming single pilot op, substitute 10 hours for 2 pilot crew) in a rolling 24 hour period, and 10 consecutive hours of rest in that 24 hours, a de-facto 14 hour duty day.

Under 135.267(c) A pilot would have a scheduled 14 hour duty day, a 10 hour rest, a 14 hour duty day, etc.......

The advantage (to the operator) of (c) would be that it would allow, for example, a (single) pilot to fly 6 hours in the afternoon, end the assigned duty day at 1900, rest 10 hours, begin duty at 0500, and immediately fly 6 hours. This would be 12 flight hours between noon the first day and noon the second day, so it wouldn't be allowed under 135.267(b), but it would be permissible under 135.267 (c).

In other words, 135.267(c) doesn't allow you to exceed 8 (or 10) hours in the 14 hour duty day, but it does allow you to exceed that in a 24 hour period.

This might be an advantage to, say an EMS operator which has pilot on a 12 on, 12 off schedule, in that it would allow for a pilot who was busy in hte last half of his shift to go to work next shift and be busy in the first half of his shift. Other types of operations might find the less structured method of 135.267 more advantageous.


To tie back into our discussion, in order to take advantage of the flexibility of 135.267(c), the operator must assign regular 14 hour (or less) duty days.

That's how I read the regulation, anyway. I'm sure if I'm way off base, someone will let me know.

 

[mike1mc]

I think you got it, I just tend to think of the reg from another angle. Its the 8 hours that throws the whole thing off.

 

[HS125]

The reg does specifically reference a 14 hour duty period.

135.267(c)

if the assigned flight time occurs during a regularly assigned duty period of no more than 14 hours and--

(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

Like it or not, agree with it or not, the current FAA interpretation of 135.267 is such that as long as the assignment is planned "Scheduled" to be 8 hours of flying (10 hours as the case maybe) or less and 14 hours of duty or less, you may exceed those numbers for unforeseen circumstances (weather, ATC, late freight and/or passengers). As long as you have the 10 hours of rest in the preceding 24 hours prior to the "Planned (Scheduled) Completion" of the trip, you can still fly past the 8/10 hours flight time and well past 14 hours of duty. Just make sure you document the circumstances that caused you to exceed those times.

I am in no way saying that you are off base on this one because that is the way that I use to interpret this reg, and that's the way I think it should be interpreted! It wasn't until I had a former POI spell it out to me that I realized that this reg doesn't provide much protection for the pilot when it comes to getting proper rest.

Legal to start, legal to finish.

 

[Lostdog65]

Boiled down...look back 24 hours from the time you're going to start a 135 leg...did you have 10 consecutive hours of rest? If yes...you're good to go. If no...then don't leave until you do. Did you fly more than 8 hours? If so...add as many hours as you overflew the 8 to your rest.

Eric

 

[A Squared]

RIght, I realize that the "legal to start, legal to finish" with unforseen circumstances applies here.

I'm talking about what *is* "legal to start", not whether you can press on with unforseen delayy that put you over limits.

My understanding is that, ignoring the situation of unforseen delays, there are situations where you might not be legal if you are using 135.267(b), but *would* be legal if you're using 135.267(c). But in order to use 135.267(c) you must have a regularly assigned 14 hour duty day.

Of course in either case, the 8 hours, 10 hours and 14 hours duty goes out the window with unforseen delays.

Agree? Disagree?

 

[HS125]

RIght, I realize that the "legal to start, legal to finish" with unforseen circumstances applies here.

I'm talking about what *is* "legal to start", not whether you can press on with unforseen delayy that put you over limits.

My understanding is that, ignoring the situation of unforseen delays, there are situations where you might not be legal if you are using 135.267(b), but *would* be legal if you're using 135.267(c). But in order to use 135.267(c) you must have a regularly assigned 14 hour duty day.

Of course in either case, the 8 hours, 10 hours and 14 hours duty goes out the window with unforseen delays.

Agree? Disagree?

As I usually do with you when you discuss regulations "Agree". Sometimes things just get lost in translation.

 

[Say Again Over]

Boiled down...look back 24 hours

Bingo, it's all about the previous 24 hours.

 

[CFIse]

My understanding is that, ignoring the situation of unforseen delays, there are situations where you might not be legal if you are using 135.267(b), but *would* be legal if you're using 135.267(c). But in order to use 135.267(c) you must have a regularly assigned 14 hour duty day.

Maybe we were an exception - but our GOM told us what set of rules we were being scheduled under (it was the "scheduled operations" one, not the 14 hour one) so we didn't have a choice. Sometimes we would have been better off with the unscheduled ops. version, but that was too bad.

 

[CFIse]

Like it or not, agree with it or not, the current FAA interpretation of 135.267 is such that as long as the assignment is planned "Scheduled" to be 8 hours of flying (10 hours as the case maybe) or less and 14 hours of duty or less, you may exceed those numbers for unforeseen circumstances (weather, ATC, late freight and/or passengers). As long as you have the 10 hours of rest in the preceding 24 hours prior to the "Planned (Scheduled) Completion" of the trip, you can still fly past the 8/10 hours flight time and well past 14 hours of duty. Just make sure you document the circumstances that caused you to exceed those times.

Is that true? I'm in the 121 world now and the duty day is inviolate (well duty day doesn't exist, but the required rest provisions). Even if flights have been delayed all day we can't start the last leg unless we'll be finished within a 16 hour duty day (reduced rest). Now the LAST flight can suffer unforseen delays IN THE AIR and what can you do, but if we're delayed on the ground and run out of time, it's back to the gate.

I thought 135 was the same - maybe not.

 

[Stealthh21]

You know its funny, we are beating this to death, and the FAA is almost finished re-writing the entire 135 section. From what I have heard, the new 135 will have a much better duty system. It will be much better for pilots. Completely different from what is in place now. And its coming faster then you think.