135.267 question

[DFries]

My compamy is going through some internal strife over this question. Maybe someone can shed some light on this..... As a 135 operator, when the paying customer is off the airplane, and we are operating the aircraft part 91 on the way home. does 135.267 time and duty still apply to the flight crew? My understanding is that because we are a commercial operator, the flight crew is required to adhere to 135 time and duty regardless of what part the aircraft is being operated under. Any input on this would be helpful.

 

[Princedietrich]

Most interpretations of this reg would state that even though there is no "payload" on the aircraft and the flight is conducted under 91 rules, the flight itself is still a 135 operation. Therefore, the training and duty/rest rules would still be applied but you don't have to worry about takeoff and approach minimums or any other wacky 135 flight operations rules.

Now, you can throw in a gray area by stating that after dropping off the pax and "deadheading" home for the last leg of the day is a purely 91 reposition, thereby allowing the crew to exceed the duty limits for the purpose of getting home to their own beds.

To further muddy the waters, it can be said that flight operations involving only the owner of the aircraft are completely and totally 91 since there is no common carriage taking place. Some management teams latch onto this interpretation with all talons in order to justify running the crew completely ragged.

Best way to look at it is this: if there's an air carrier certificate hanging on the wall, and you are flying and airplane because someone is paying for you to take them from point A to point B, then you are a 135 operation. If there is an additional empty leg involved in getting to point A and another one in getting home from point B, those can be considered 135 operations flying under 91 rules.

Clear as mud?

 

[pilotyip]

91 tail end ferry is legal under part 91 for a 135 crew. It can not be ordered by the company. A crew can call fatique and not fly the leg if that is their desire. You can also apply 91 rules going empty into a pick up point, but rest duty and flight time on that leg count towards 135 minimums for that 14 hour period.

 

[FlyFlyFly]

The way I have always looked at it is when did you leave rest and when does rest start again.

Try telling the FAA that at 14 hours you dutied off and then "rested" on the plane for three flight hours flying Part 91. I believe there was a NPRM that was going to take all this to task, but it apparently did not make it to print.

The way we handle it is:

1) If the crew wants to do it, they need DO or CP permission.
2) The company cannot order it.
3) Duty cannot be assigned less than 10 hours from the completion of prior duty, whether 91 or 135.

This is a gray area for alot of people that quite often is subjected to the interpretation that is most expeditious. You may want to ask your POI their opinion.

 

[mavrck]

Tail end of the trip is part 91 and duty does NOT apply.

keep in mind though, if you run a full 14 duty day then do a 91 leg home and that leg is 2.5hrs, it is part 91 and legal, however, if metal is bent the feds will come down hard on you/company and slap you with a violation of part 91 under Careless and Reckless Operation.

 

[flipper66]

Fodder for the cannon...

Lets take an example:

Company hands you a flight schedule:

0030-0330 - Point A to B
1:30 wait for client
0500-0800 - Point B to C
00:45 Quick turn
0845-1145 - Point C to D
1:30 Drop client, refuel plane and pilot bellies
1315-1615 - Point D to A

Flight & Duty:
:30 File, wx, fuel
3.0 Reposition for pickup
1:30 Wait for client
3.0 First Leg (to fuel stop)
:45 quick turn
3.0 Second Leg (to destination)
1:30 fuel, get food, etc.
3.0 Reposition back home ("empty" leg)
:30 put the plane away
---------
??:?? hours of duty (either 11:45 or 16:45
depending on how you view it. I think 16:45).
12.0 hours of flight

Legal or not?

I see two issues with this flight:

a) it exceeds 10 hours of flight in a 24 hour period (not due to unexpected delays) so I've busted 135.267(b) because the 3.0 reposition home leg is still commercial flying (lets call it "other commercial flying" - because I'm being paid to do it) regardless your view on its 91/135 status.

b) even though the plane was brought home empty, the customer was billed to move the plane from A-B-C-D-A. Although the passenger was not aboard, the customer paid to move the plane from A all the way back to A. Therefore, I think the entire trip falls under Part 135 as far as flight and duty are concerned.

I do believe that on the first and last reposition legs (without paying passenger aboard) I can fly the airplane under 91 rules as far as when I need an alternate, allowing me to fly a GPS approach (even though it's not in our 135 opspecs), allowing me to "try" an approach when-before reaching the FAF-the weather is reported below minimums, allowing me to takeoff without meeting our Part 135 takeoff minimums, etc...

Even if you don't accept that interpretation, I would argue that in this example I was assigned (by company) a trip from point A to point A (which took 16:15 and 12.0 flight). If I look back 24 hours from 16:15 (and lets say I'd had at least 10 hours of rest when I went on duty at 0000), I've only had 7:45 minutes of consecutive rest in the 24 hour period that preceeds the planned completion time of my assignment - so I now have busted 135.267(d).

OK... someone hit that with a flechette round and tell me where all the holes are =)

 

[avbug]

This subject gets made far too complicated.

If you fly after your duty to act for the company has ended, then the restrictions of Part 135 do not apply. You're always flying under Part 91...even when acting under Part 135...so 91 always applies. In particular 91.13 (carelss and reckless operation...don't fly tired or unsafe).

If the customer has paid for the last leg but isn't aboard and you're not providing point to point transportation for passengers or cargo for hire, then you're not oblgated to make the flight under Part 135.

If the company requires the trip, then it's duty. If you're approaching your rest limits (which, while Part 135 doesn't prescribe duty limits, still equates to your 14 hours of duty), then the company can't assign duty (and you can't accept duty) that puts you beyond your rest limits--10 consecutive hours in the previous 24.

If you've already put in your 14 hours and you have a reposition flight, you can do it if you volunteer...if you want to do it, fine. The company can't ask or assign you to do it. This is a key issue.

If the client has paid for the entire flight, that doesn't change the way the regulations apply to you. If the client isnt' aboard and you're not carrying his property for hire from point A to point B (the entire reason for having Part 135, incidentally)...then you can do it under Part 91.

Some aspects of Par 135 operation don't change. The maintenance, for example, is always being done under Part 135 (or Part 145, if applicable to your operation)...as well as Part 43. That doesn't get turned off when the airplane operates under Part 91. The differrence is the way the aircraft is operated, and it's the operating rules that are the consideration when moving from A to B at the end of the day after your duty is done.

Now, so far as exceeding 10 hours in a 24 hour period (or eight hours for a single pilot operation)...not an issue if you're not operating under Part 135. Operations under Part 135 operate under the look-back principle. This means that at any given moment during your duty day, you must be able to look back 24 hours to apply the rules...rest, duty, or flight limitations. Once duty is done, once you're no longer operating under 135, those restrictions no longer apply. This means that if you worked for the company for 14 hours and flew for 10...then you can still fly without regard to those times after your duty is done...including a Part 91 reposition of your work airplane.

What you must consider of course is safety, and the regulation that addresses this for a Part 91 ferry is 91.13. In every interpretation on the subject, the FAA invokes and points to this regulation. So yes, while you can legally do that 91 ferry even after you've filled your duty times, even after your 10 hours of rest in the past 24 is no longer in reach, and even though you've already filled your time quota...you need to be able to do it in a way that cannot be construed as careless or reckless. If anything happens during that flight which comes back to a fault of your own, you can count on that regulation being invoked...and don't forget that under the regulation you're guilty until proven innocent (and you won't be).

Part 91 tail-end ferries aren't a grey area at all...it's just an area that too many pilots and managers overcomplicate. Botton line, be safe, do it under your volition and not that of the company, and don't carry paying passengers or cargo during that time.

 

[Publishers]

That "paid for the entire trip" is one place people get tripped up. A customer pays for only what he actually needed and used. Your positioning TO and AFTER have nothing to do with it even though you as a company may have figured those into the cost. This first came up for me 30 years ago when I used to accompany auto parts flights when our crew was running out of time. I would fly the aircraft back with them on board and I was not a commercial pilot. The FAA said those flights were 135 until I got a ruling which said only the leg with the product, or passenger were 135.

 

[AutoBus]

This subject gets made far too complicated.

If you fly after your duty to act for the company has ended, then the restrictions of Part 135 do not apply. You're always flying under Part 91...even when acting under Part 135...so 91 always applies. In particular 91.13 (carelss and reckless operation...don't fly tired or unsafe).

If the customer has paid for the last leg but isn't aboard and you're not providing point to point transportation for passengers or cargo for hire, then you're not oblgated to make the flight under Part 135.

If the company requires the trip, then it's duty. If you're approaching your rest limits (which, while Part 135 doesn't prescribe duty limits, still equates to your 14 hours of duty), then the company can't assign duty (and you can't accept duty) that puts you beyond your rest limits--10 consecutive hours in the previous 24.

If you've already put in your 14 hours and you have a reposition flight, you can do it if you volunteer...if you want to do it, fine. The company can't ask or assign you to do it. This is a key issue.

If the client has paid for the entire flight, that doesn't change the way the regulations apply to you. If the client isnt' aboard and you're not carrying his property for hire from point A to point B (the entire reason for having Part 135, incidentally)...then you can do it under Part 91.

Some aspects of Par 135 operation don't change. The maintenance, for example, is always being done under Part 135 (or Part 145, if applicable to your operation)...as well as Part 43. That doesn't get turned off when the airplane operates under Part 91. The differrence is the way the aircraft is operated, and it's the operating rules that are the consideration when moving from A to B at the end of the day after your duty is done.

Now, so far as exceeding 10 hours in a 24 hour period (or eight hours for a single pilot operation)...not an issue if you're not operating under Part 135. Operations under Part 135 operate under the look-back principle. This means that at any given moment during your duty day, you must be able to look back 24 hours to apply the rules...rest, duty, or flight limitations. Once duty is done, once you're no longer operating under 135, those restrictions no longer apply. This means that if you worked for the company for 14 hours and flew for 10...then you can still fly without regard to those times after your duty is done...including a Part 91 reposition of your work airplane.

What you must consider of course is safety, and the regulation that addresses this for a Part 91 ferry is 91.13. In every interpretation on the subject, the FAA invokes and points to this regulation. So yes, while you can legally do that 91 ferry even after you've filled your duty times, even after your 10 hours of rest in the past 24 is no longer in reach, and even though you've already filled your time quota...you need to be able to do it in a way that cannot be construed as careless or reckless. If anything happens during that flight which comes back to a fault of your own, you can count on that regulation being invoked...and don't forget that under the regulation you're guilty until proven innocent (and you won't be).

Part 91 tail-end ferries aren't a grey area at all...it's just an area that too many pilots and managers overcomplicate. Botton line, be safe, do it under your volition and not that of the company, and don't carry paying passengers or cargo during that time.

Pretty much sums it all up

 

[CFIse]

Clear as mud?

What you wrote was very clear - all wrong, but very clear.