135.267 question

[CFIse]

A Part 91 flight is a Part 91 flight. It can be "assigned" at the end of a Part 135 day and is not affected by any previous Part 135 flying.

Again - you're trying to say that a Part 91 flight, assigned by the company, is subject to Part 135 flight time regulations - and every reference you've provided so far disagrees. Part 91 is Part 91, it can be assigned and it has no reference to Part 135 at that point. That's a very simple point to grasp, why is it so difficult for you?

How do Part 91 flight departments work? They "assign" Part 91 flights all the time, but according to you no flights can be assigned under Part 91, they must all be volunteer - that's ludicrous.

 

[flystoomuch]

Immunity!

So let me see here…

91.13 is totally irrelevant even though it is directly spelled out in every single FAA opinion letter that addresses the subject.

So therefore if you exceed the 14 hour implied duty day (must look back and find at least 10 hours of REST during the previous 24 hours) you can continue flying indefinitely under Part 91 as long as you SWEAR TO GOD you felt fresh as a daisy when you blew that tire and ran over that runway light?

Is that what we are saying CFIse?

Immunity from being Careless and Reckless… now THAT’S really cool!

 

[avbug]

How do Part 91 flight departments work? They "assign" Part 91 flights all the time,...

We're not talking about a Part 91 flight department. We are talking about a Part 135 certificate holder. Try to keep up.

but according to you no flights can be assigned under Part 91, they must all be volunteer - that's ludicrous.

At no time did I say any such thing. Try to comprehend.

A certificate holder cannot assign, and no flight crew cannot accept, a flight assignment that when planned will exceed the flight time limitations spelled out in the regulation. Further, no certificate holder may assign and no flight crew may accept an assignment that no longer falls within the rest limitations of the regulation.

The certificate holder, which is always a 135 certificate holder, cannot assign a flight to a crew beyond their rest period, regardless of the operating rules fo the flight itself. The certificate holder does not magically become a Part 91 certificate holder...If the certificate holder assigns duty, it's alway subject to the regulation under Part 135. Period.

The crew may certainly operate a flight in accordance with the operating rules of Part 91. The crew is always beholden to Part 91. However, you don't seem to comprehend the difference between being assigned a flight by a Part 135 certificate holder, and the operating rules under which the flight is actually conducted.

The only time that the flight and rest regulations no longer apply to the flight crew is when they no longer have any duty to the company; their duty has ended. After duty has ended, the crew has no more duty to act for the company, and the company (read: certificate holder) cannot assign the crew. Period.

A Part 91 flight department, in other words a flight department which lacks an operating certifiate, is not subject to the limitations proided by the certificate they don't have. Do you understand that? One can't be bound by the rules applicable to a certification one doesn't hold. The introduction of your comments regarding a Part 91 flight department serve only to cloud the issue...one you already don't understand.

A Part 91 flight is a Part 91 flight. It can be "assigned" at the end of a Part 135 day and is not affected by any previous Part 135 flying.

Again, it has nothing to do with previous 135 flying. Duty for the company is done. The crew is no longer beholden to the company, to the certificate holder. The flight is no longer being operated at the request of the company. The company is no longer assigning the flight.

Duty is defined as that time when the crew is obligated to act for the company. When duty is over, the crew is no longer obligated to act for the company. The company cannot assign a crew to act, or plan a flight's completion beyond, the rest limits prescribed for the crew.

For regularly scheduled crews, the duty period is 14 hours...and the crew can't be assigned flights beyond that time. Duty to act for the company, o fly by assignment of the company, at the requet of the company, must be done by the end of those 14 hours. The flights and assignments must be reasonaly planned to be completed by the end of the 14 hour duty period.

For non-scheduled crews which do not have a regular duty period, the crew must at all times be able to look back and find 10 consecutive hours of rest in the previous 24 hours. The non-schduled crew is not assigned duty, yet never the less is limited to 14 hours by the 10 hour rest and 24 hour lookback requirement. When duty to act on behalf of the company is over, so are those restrictions. However, there's the catch.

Duty to act for the certificate holder. The crew cannot have any duty to act for the certificate holder beyond their rest limits (14 hour regularly assigned duty period for scheduled crews, and 10 consecutiv hours in the previous 24 for non-scheduled crews). Any flying done after that isn't something the certificate holder can assign...that will be duty, and the certificate holder can't assign duty past the crews duty and rest limits.

(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.

You'll note that ten hours of rest must be found in the 24 hour period preceeding, or before, the planned end of duty or the company. The company cannot assign a flight beyond that time. There is the limitation on what the company can ask. The company can assign duty up until that point, but not beyond. Even if the company tries to assign duty beyond that time, the flight crew can't accept it.

A certificate holder doesn't merely become a "Part 91 Flight Department" after a crew has exceeded it's rest limitations, with the ability to keep on assigning the crew to duty, keep it working. That's the point of Part 135. It puts the brakes on what a certificate holder can require a crew to do, puts limitations on the operating conditions at certain times, and provides requirements for rest, as well as flight time limitations. This is one such limitation.

A part 135 certificate holder is not a Part 91 flight department. When a Part 135 certificate holder undertakes to assign a crew to duty, it has 14 hours in which to do it. A tail end ferry after that time has run out is legal...but the company can't require the crew to do it...because that's duty. The company gets 14 hours of the crew's life to do that. After that, the company can't assign, and if the company tries the crew can't accept.

 

[340drvr]

Question for Avbug: So, what about a combo operation, let's say a 135 cert. holder, using privately owned/leased aircraft for 135, and, providing Part 91 pilot service/management for those owners.......you're saying that those owner flights assigned as 91 trips must adhere to all 135 flight/duty time restrictions?
(my head is starting to hurt!)
Usually, Avbug, your insight provides excellent clarity, but, I guess I don't get this one.

(The number of times questions on this come up, and, the wide variety of "my POI said" or "our DO says" stories makes me wish for a complete re-write and clarification from the FAA.)

 

[pilotyip]

clarification from the FAA, like stable aviation career, an oxymoran

 

[CFIse]

The certificate holder, which is always a 135 certificate holder, cannot assign a flight to a crew beyond their rest period, regardless of the operating rules fo the flight itself. The certificate holder does not magically become a Part 91 certificate holder...If the certificate holder assigns duty, it's alway subject to the regulation under Part 135. Period.

This is where we fundamentally disagree, and since I can see no basis in the regulation for this and there is no history with respect to the FAA taking this point of view we're never going to agree. There is no such thing as a "Part 91 certificate" and we just disagree that a Part 135 certificate holder must always assign work to be flown under the Part 135 regulations. That's just not supported by any of the FAA interpretations on the subject.

 

[CFIse]

So let me see here…

91.13 is totally irrelevant even though it is directly spelled out in every single FAA opinion letter that addresses the subject.

So therefore if you exceed the 14 hour implied duty day (must look back and find at least 10 hours of REST during the previous 24 hours) you can continue flying indefinitely under Part 91 as long as you SWEAR TO GOD you felt fresh as a daisy when you blew that tire and ran over that runway light?

Is that what we are saying CFIse?

Immunity from being Careless and Reckless… now THAT’S really cool!

You're trying to compare apples and tennis balls. 91.13 ALWAYS applies whether you have been on duty 10 minutes or 48 hours - there's nothing magic about 14 hours that makes actions taken with 13:59 of duty not careless and reckless and actions taken with 14:01 of duty as being careless and reckless.

91.13 is a red hering when discussing flight limitations under Part 135.

 

[avbug]

14 CFR 91.13 is never a red herring, as it's invoked in nearly every FAA action regarding duty time and rest, particularly under Part 135. Further, it's invoked in every legal interpretation on the subject; it's always relevant.

 

[CFIse]

14 CFR 91.13 is never a red herring, as it's invoked in nearly every FAA action regarding duty time and rest, particularly under Part 135. Further, it's invoked in every legal interpretation on the subject; it's always relevant.

Now you're just arguing for arguing's sake. It is not relevant to what is legal under the Part 135 regulations. It's just a caveat regulation "this is legal to do UNLESS you would be careless and reckless in your operation" but it has no direct bearing on what is legal or illegal under Part 135.

If you struggle with that distinction then little wonder you have trouble with the rest of it.

 

[avbug]

A part 135 certificate holder is always beholden to Part 91; it's always relevant. Surely you understand this?