135.265 questions.

[scubabri]

Hi, I've got some questions about 135.265. According to 265(a)(4) no more than 8 hours of flight time in 24 consecutive hours, which is pretty easy to understand.

but then 265(b)(2) says that 10 hours of rest for 8 or more hours of scheduled flight time.

so how can you be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight time if you can only fly 8 hours in 24 hours.

Is there anything that explains these duty times better than the FAR's?

thanks

sb

 

[Canucit]

Well you have understand that in a 24 hour period you have a 14 hours duty preceeded by 10 hours of rest if by chance you do go over your 8 hours of flying (by some undertermined factor like winds aloft or unplaned) then you have to start adding time to your rest ie;1-30 11 hours 31-60 12 hours and everything after 16 hours of rest supposedly you cannot go over the 14 hr duty day period .......but I have heard that you could go over you duty day if the reason is some unforseen circumstance

 

[100-1/2]

Scheduled or On Demand Air Carrier?

There are flight time limitations for each type of certificate, reduced rest provisions for only one and only ONE duty limit appicable to both. Some operators are On Demand, meaning they operate on less than five round trips per week between two or more points or along a route, yet they adhere to the scheduled operators annual flight time limits of 1200 commercial flying and so on instead of the 1400 hours annual allowance. However, they are not allowed to operate under "reduced rest" provisions of "Scheduled" One and two-pilot crews. This is only available to scheduled operators and only authorized for specific operations by the POI and usually limited to 2 pilot crews, rarely if ever single-pilot ops.

135.263(d) specifically references flight time, ONLY. Duty is still governing. Even with adverse weather, you cannot depart on a leg if there is not sufficient time to arrive at destination before 14 hours of duty have expired. Some POI's will bust you for not allowing standard 30 minutes of duty for post flight, and consider less as exceeding 14 hours of duty time, by the balance. Winds aloft are not considered adverse weather. Arrival and departure delays consequential to weather as well as diversions and reroutes are considered circumstances beyond the flight crew's control with regard to flight time only. It is my understanding from multiple FSDO offices and POIs, that in the event of "unforecast" Forecast winds aloft (stronger than "forecast") are you getting the inference?, if you will not arrive at your intended destination with sufficient time to post flight, debrief and drive away from the airport, As PIC you are expected to terminated the flight with sufficient time to accomplish those duties or immediately upon recognition of the potential for exceeding this limitation.

135.267(b-e) clearly cite limits for Unscheduled pilot crews up to 2 pilots and echo the "Hard line" of 14 hours without exception.

Hope this helps,
100-1/2

 

[Prof. ATP]

I don't agree with 100-1/2's interpretation, and neither does our POI. There are no duty time requirements once you are done flying; the only requirement is that you get 10 hours of rest (or more, if you went over your flight time) before you fly again. Duty time applies to flight operations only.

POIs recognize that there is a little bit of duty after completing a flight, and would suspect a situation where the manifests show departure exactly 10 hours after your last arrival, but I have never heard of any hard-and-fast 30 minute rule. I have heard that some POIs consider any time at the airport "duty", but I would defy them to consider an early-morning joyride in my Taylorcraft disqualifying for a trip 9 hours later.

We send people on multi-leg trips with stopovers that our software predicts as 13+55. Sometimes the 14 hour limit is exceeded, but I would be comfortable looking my POI in the eye, handing him the dispatch paperwork, and saying "but it was planned for less than 14", and I fully expect that he would say "OK." I would be a lot less comfortable without the dispatch paperwork, however. When limits are inadvertantly exceeded, we file a report with the duty time logs.

Typical examples for us involve unforecast weather: depart with a forecast of visibility 4, arrive with visibility 1/4, divert, wait for truck with the freight to drive (slowly) through the fog, and continue. It's helpful if your preflight paperwork includes a printout of the relevant TAFs.

The three most important things (from the FAA's point of view) in commercial flying are paperwork, paperwork, and paperwork. When in doubt, confuse them with the truth.

Duty time regulations are hard to understand and hard to interpret. We spend a lot of time with out new hires on this, with the charter coordinator and more senior pilots as very needed backup, and we still see a few mistakes. These pilots get additional training and perhaps a friendly line check from me (I am a check airman).

 

[trfenwyd]

14 hrs?

I don't get where everybody is getting a fourteen hour duty day. Well I get it, 24 hrs in a day minus 10 hours of rest = 14 hours. But the only reg that covers this says and this is for unscheduled crews, that if you're going to exceed your eight hours, by weather or atc delays, then it has to be within 14 hours.

If you get 10 rest before, 10 hours of rest after and only fly for 4 hours, it seems to me that you could be on duty for more than 14. This was how it was taught to me in my initial training. Is this completely off?

 

[scubabri]

Ok.. but my question still remains. How can you "schedule" more than 8 hours of flight time.

sb

 

[DitchDriver]

Ok.. but my question still remains. How can you "schedule" more than 8 hours of flight time.

sb

Up to 10 hours of flight time should not be a problem for a two pilot crew, right?

 

[scubabri]

I'd like to know about single pilot.

sb

 

[Singlecoil]

Hi, I've got some questions about 135.265. According to 265(a)(4) no more than 8 hours of flight time in 24 consecutive hours, which is pretty easy to understand.

but then 265(b)(2) says that 10 hours of rest for 8 or more hours of scheduled flight time.

so how can you be scheduled for more than 8 hours of flight time if you can only fly 8 hours in 24 hours.

Is there anything that explains these duty times better than the FAR's?

thanks

sb

Simple. 135.265 a -4 refers to single pilot operations.
153.265 b -2 concerns more than one pilot operations, where you can be scheduled for more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period, but not more than 8 hours between rest periods.

 

[100-1/2]

Duty Time...

135.267 - Flight Time and rest requirements: Unscheduled one- and two-pilot crews.

...(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 CONSECUTIVE hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignement.

It is mathematically impossible to have a duty period longer than 14 hours and have acquired the 10 consecutive hours of rest preceding that duty period. Thus the 24 minus 10. I have worked in FSDO regions in all four corners of the US and a couple in between and this is a "Hard and Fast Rule." I would only look my POI in the eye while standing behind my DO and CP to defend an alternative view.

Scheduled operations do not cite with the specificity of 135.267 with regard to 10 consecutive hours within 24. Rather the reg seems to allow the 10 hours to be split into two components within 24 hours. You can't just READ the Reg, you have to READ the reg. Seemingly, under "reduced rest", a rest period can be as little as 8 hours, however when you disect the provisions, approximately only 14 hours of duty remain to meet the reduced rest requirements during any 24 hour period. It is just relieving operators from the 10 CONSECUTIVE hour rule to meet specific scheduling demands.

Scuba's question? ...is answered in paragraph (a) a crew member may not be assigned (scheduled, asked, demanded or intimidated) or accept an assignment that will exceed commercial flying limits in paragraphs within that chapter:
8 hours Single-pilot
10 hours Two pilots.

Under circumstances beyond the operator's controland only when flying time is 'scheduled/assigned' for 8/10 hours or less depending on composition of crew, that flight time may be exceeded provided additional rest requirements are met following that service.

...(a) no certificate holder may assign...and no flight crewmember may accept...

It is your responsibility as PIC not to accept assignment that you know (preflight planning) will violate 135.267. You and the certificated Dispatcher(s) are in store for a violation if your POI finds this while conducting surveillance on your companies' operations.

This is not a reg open for interpretation nor has it varied between FSDO's in my experience. All the regs have been written in blood and this by far is one of the bloodiest, it will often surface a zero tolerance attitude from the FAA and they will make haste to fine and violate your company in addition to the certificate action against the flight crew.

100-1/2.