1261 days to go!

[Mamma]

Are you out of touch with the world or what?

Every single working pilot and those who will choose this career, eventually, benefit from the age change. Young pilots don't think about retiring but eventually they will all be grateful to have the option of working 5 more years and adding what might be much needed cash to their 401k plans or their kid's college funds. Nowadays, college costs $100K to $200K and those kinds of expenses usually come up right when a parent is in their 50's. And, of course, there are practically no more guaranteed pensions, so most everyone who works for an airline only has what has been put away in a 401k type program.

You should all know that nobody knows their financial situation into the future. No matter how much you plan, possibly there will be illness in the family or an accident that drains hundreds of thousands of dollars that insurance won't cover, or a divorce or two, or college for 4 or more children, or a stock market crash or possibly just bad investments. Possibly your children will dream of being a pilot like you, so you will want to help them with that $100K expense, plus college is now another $100K or more. If you have girls there are weddings to pay for and when they leave the house you will want to help your children to help them make a down payment a house, if you can. All of these things usually come up right while you are 50 to 60 or older. Of course, if you are one of the few that has no children and none of the above problems, yes, then you can quit flying anytime you wish. Others, are not like that though, they need to keep earning an income. For most pilots, airline flying is the only thing they know well.

So now you say, "Nobody here benefited from age 65." Are you too young or whatever to understand what I have said here or what? Every pilot benefits from the options that the Age-65 rule change provides.

Thanks for the life lesson gramps but I think you missed the boat again.

First, thanks to your generation I can forecast much of my future because I was stagnated/furloughed for over 6 years. I will have to bust my ass twice as hard to try and recoup the windfall the geezers got. I will have to take an early upgrade out of domicile and commute for years to fly red eyes and other crap nobody in their right mind would want. And I won't come close to breaking even. I might have to diminish my later years by working longer so I can retire. Thanks for that. In addition, no generation of pilots have flown as much and as high as the pilots today. 90 hour block months, red-eyes and all sorts of crap that pilots of the past didn't do. I expect to see much more cancer, diabetes and hypertension from this brutal lifestyle. Making it to 65 will be a pipe dream for most in my opinion.

What you are too dense to realize is there is no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody had to pay for this "great deal" as you call it and it was pad for by me and thousands of others so well established captains and guys not even on property (those being hired today) could benefit. Somebody had to pay for this gramps and if you paid the f'k attention you would see most of the 15 guys that frequent this forum fall into that group. That is who I meant when I said nobody "HERE" benefitted. We lost. We bought the lunch. We will never recover from this. So please quit dropping in and rubbing our noses in it.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Thanks for the life lesson gramps but I think you missed the boat again.

First, thanks to your generation I can forecast much of my future because I was stagnated/furloughed for over 6 years. I will have to bust my ass twice as hard to try and recoup the windfall the geezers got. I will have to take an early upgrade out of domicile and commute for years to fly red eyes and other crap nobody in their right mind would want. And I won't come close to breaking even. I might have to diminish my later years by working longer so I can retire. Thanks for that. In addition, no generation of pilots have flown as much and as high as the pilots today. 90 hour block months, red-eyes and all sorts of crap that pilots of the past didn't do. I expect to see much more cancer, diabetes and hypertension from this brutal lifestyle. Making it to 65 will be a pipe dream for most in my opinion.

What you are too dense to realize is there is no such thing as a free lunch. Somebody had to pay for this "great deal" as you call it and it was pad for by me and thousands of others so well established captains and guys not even on property (those being hired today) could benefit. Somebody had to pay for this gramps and if you paid the f'k attention you would see most of the 15 guys that frequent this forum fall into that group. That is who I meant when I said nobody "HERE" benefitted. We lost. We bought the lunch. We will never recover from this. So please quit dropping in and rubbing our noses in it.

It is amazing to me that you think my generation had it so easy. That is total BS. Did you know of all the furloughs in the industry from 1970 to 1985. Many UAL pilots were furloughed for 7-years, others like me were furloughed twice for 1 and then for 3 years. This was true at all the airlines. Pilots at NWA were furloughed so long that their recall rights expired. Many pilots were with PanAm, Braniff, Eastern, Northeastern, Peoples Express to name a few. Many to most of these people all lost their jobs as their airlines shut down. A few were lucky enough to get merged or hired by other lines but thousands lost their careers. During all of this there was total stagnation for about 10 years. Many S/O's were stuck flying sideways for that long or up to 15-years, some for 20-years. F/O's were in the same position before they could even move to the left seat. You talk about schedules, how about the 727QC freighters and the DC-8 freighters. Don't you know these were all red-eyes. And as far as the passenger flights, an airline can't operate without hundreds of red-eyes and everybody flies those trips in their career too. My generation certainly paid their dues for bad trips, stagnation and furloughs, but for some reason you only think your group of pilots did this. Amazing!

Now you talk about the difficulty of "commuting." You are right about how bad commuting is, but that is your choice and you know it. No one is forcing you to do that. The fact is that you are just greedy for the cash and the left seat too. And don't blame it on age-65 as it actually helps you if you take the time to run the numbers. At worst, while the age change may have resulted in 5-years of stagnation, it also results in 5-years of more work opportunity which is probably a break-even for most people or even a plus.

So now you mention your group of 15 members on FI. Now I get it. It's just you guys who have the issue. To heck with the hundreds of thousands of up and coming pilots and thousands of currently employed pilots who benefit from the age change and the benefits it presents, as I have pointed out earlier. So that means it's you, the 15 here at FI that are the selfish ones. So what, you and your group might say, you don't care that the change is such a benefit for the many many thousands of your fellow pilots who may or may not want to work to age-65. It's you 15 who are the selfish bullies who lack the understanding of so many of your own colleagues.

You think this career is not what is was. Yes, you are right for sure. But that's because of airline managements determination and their success in fragmenting the pilot group. Their one goal has always been to cut pilot pay in half and cut it to school teacher wages. Those airline MBA's hated the fact that the Captains earned more than they did. Unfortunately they have been successful, pretty much across the board, with the exceptions being the legacy freight lines, UPS and FedEx. That group is tough and remains tough, whereas the passenger legacy's have mostly all caved. None of these problems are a result of the Age-65 rule change, it's just management against the "rank and file." So I hope you and your group of 15 will put your efforts into where the problem is. Follow the lead of the UPS and FedEx pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

It is amazing to me that you think my generation had it so easy. That is total BS. Did you know of all the furloughs in the industry from 1970 to 1985. Many UAL pilots were furloughed for 7-years, others like me were furloughed twice for 1 and then for 3 years. This was true at all the airlines. Pilots at NWA were furloughed so long that their recall rights expired. Many pilots were with PanAm, Braniff, Eastern, Northeastern, Peoples Express to name a few. Many to most of these people all lost their jobs as their airlines shut down. A few were lucky enough to get merged or hired by other lines but thousands lost their careers. During all of this there was total stagnation for about 10 years. Many S/O's were stuck flying sideways for that long or up to 15-years, some for 20-years. F/O's were in the same position before they could even move to the left seat. You talk about schedules, how about the 727QC freighters and the DC-8 freighters. Don't you know these were all red-eyes. And as far as the passenger flights, an airline can't operate without hundreds of red-eyes and everybody flies those trips in their career too. My generation certainly paid their dues for bad trips, stagnation and furloughs, but for some reason you only think your group of pilots did this. Amazing!

Now you talk about the difficulty of "commuting." You are right about how bad commuting is, but that is your choice and you know it. No one is forcing you to do that. The fact is that you are just greedy for the cash and the left seat too. And don't blame it on age-65 as it actually helps you if you take the time to run the numbers. At worst, while the age change may have resulted in 5-years of stagnation, it also results in 5-years of more work opportunity which is probably a break-even for most people or even a plus.

So now you mention your group of 15 members on FI. Now I get it. It's just you guys who have the issue. To heck with the hundreds of thousands of up and coming pilots and thousands of currently employed pilots who benefit from the age change and the benefits it presents, as I have pointed out earlier. So that means it's you, the 15 here at FI that are the selfish ones. So what, you and your group might say, you don't care that the change is such a benefit for the many many thousands of your fellow pilots who may or may not want to work to age-65. It's you 15 who are the selfish bullies who lack the understanding of so many of your own colleagues.

You think this career is not what is was. Yes, you are right for sure. But that's because of airline managements determination and their success in fragmenting the pilot group. Their one goal has always been to cut pilot pay in half and cut it to school teacher wages. Those airline MBA's hated the fact that the Captains earned more than they did. Unfortunately they have been successful, pretty much across the board, with the exceptions being the legacy freight lines, UPS and FedEx. That group is tough and remains tough, whereas the passenger legacy's have mostly all caved. None of these problems are a result of the Age-65 rule change, it's just management against the "rank and file." So I hope you and your group of 15 will put your efforts into where the problem is. Follow the lead of the UPS and FedEx pilots.

+++ but doesn't fit into the me! me! me! generation.

 

[PCL_128]

You are the me! me! me! generation.

 

[pilotyip]

You are the me! me! me! generation.

right, that is all I have done is complain about how unfair life has treated me.

 

[PCL_128]

In fact, yes, that's all that you do. You have a copy-and-paste private message that you've sent to dozens of members here (myself included) whining about how you should have scabbed in the '80s. You complain endlessly about college degree requirements. Etc.

 

[Flopgut]

Undaunted F: Did the Akaka Bill get done? Is your PBGC $ based on what's considered to be an early retirement? The reason I'm asking is because that's the sort of thing that should have been more important than retirement age increase, and to my recollection it didn't pass.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Undaunted F: Did the Akaka Bill get done? Is your PBGC $ based on what's considered to be an early retirement? The reason I'm asking is because that's the sort of thing that should have been more important than retirement age increase, and to my recollection it didn't pass.

The Akaka Bill failed. Much effort but no success. Another screwjob for pilots. ALPA did put some effort into this but once age-65 was law, there was little interest in helping those of us who had "retired" at age 60. As far as the PBGC is concerned, I "retired" at age 60 with appropriately reduced benefits.

 

[Flopgut]

The Akaka Bill failed. Much effort but no success. Another screwjob for pilots. ALPA did put some effort into this but once age-65 was law, there was little interest in helping those of us who had "retired" at age 60. As far as the PBGC is concerned, I "retired" at age 60 with appropriately reduced benefits.

I am sincerely sorry to hear that. I do remember emailing Prater about the importance of that Bill even after 65. Of course he didn't have much time for me either at that point.

I realize you're trying to sell everybody that 65 was, and will be, better for all. But we still have a great deal of 30,000' problems that will nullify careers/retirements no matter how long you work. We can't continue to accept things like 65* in place of real solutions.

*What I'm saying is not so much a further age increase. But rather band aid type patches that happen to be enormously divisive. Look at how we all got played: you're pissed, I'm pissed, we all took hits and we're all mad at each other. And nothing really got fixed.

 

[Mamma]

It is amazing to me that you think my generation had it so easy. That is total BS. Did you know of all the furloughs in the industry from 1970 to 1985. Many UAL pilots were furloughed for 7-years, others like me were furloughed twice for 1 and then for 3 years. This was true at all the airlines. Pilots at NWA were furloughed so long that their recall rights expired. Many pilots were with PanAm, Braniff, Eastern, Northeastern, Peoples Express to name a few. Many to most of these people all lost their jobs as their airlines shut down. A few were lucky enough to get merged or hired by other lines but thousands lost their careers. During all of this there was total stagnation for about 10 years. Many S/O's were stuck flying sideways for that long or up to 15-years, some for 20-years. F/O's were in the same position before they could even move to the left seat. You talk about schedules, how about the 727QC freighters and the DC-8 freighters. Don't you know these were all red-eyes. And as far as the passenger flights, an airline can't operate without hundreds of red-eyes and everybody flies those trips in their career too. My generation certainly paid their dues for bad trips, stagnation and furloughs, but for some reason you only think your group of pilots did this. Amazing!

Now you talk about the difficulty of "commuting." You are right about how bad commuting is, but that is your choice and you know it. No one is forcing you to do that. The fact is that you are just greedy for the cash and the left seat too. And don't blame it on age-65 as it actually helps you if you take the time to run the numbers. At worst, while the age change may have resulted in 5-years of stagnation, it also results in 5-years of more work opportunity which is probably a break-even for most people or even a plus.

So now you mention your group of 15 members on FI. Now I get it. It's just you guys who have the issue. To heck with the hundreds of thousands of up and coming pilots and thousands of currently employed pilots who benefit from the age change and the benefits it presents, as I have pointed out earlier. So that means it's you, the 15 here at FI that are the selfish ones. So what, you and your group might say, you don't care that the change is such a benefit for the many many thousands of your fellow pilots who may or may not want to work to age-65. It's you 15 who are the selfish bullies who lack the understanding of so many of your own colleagues.

You think this career is not what is was. Yes, you are right for sure. But that's because of airline managements determination and their success in fragmenting the pilot group. Their one goal has always been to cut pilot pay in half and cut it to school teacher wages. Those airline MBA's hated the fact that the Captains earned more than they did. Unfortunately they have been successful, pretty much across the board, with the exceptions being the legacy freight lines, UPS and FedEx. That group is tough and remains tough, whereas the passenger legacy's have mostly all caved. None of these problems are a result of the Age-65 rule change, it's just management against the "rank and file." So I hope you and your group of 15 will put your efforts into where the problem is. Follow the lead of the UPS and FedEx pilots.

Good Grief. I don't even know where to begin with this. Actually I do:

You are having a problem with reading comprehension. It appears after repeated attempts, I cannot help you in this department. I will try one last time.

1) You launch too many straw man arguments. Please stop. Stick to the points I brought up if you wish to have a conversation. My thoughts were laid out very simple yet your entire rant (directed towards me) has pretty much nothing to do with what I wrote or what I believe. If you feel the need to get something off your chest or need a platform to pontificate, start a new thread but don't drag me into it.

2) I'm going to make this as simple as I can so you can "get it."

a. I do not care to debate the merits of the age 65 rule. It is what it is.

b. My point is VERY narrow. There are not many people on this forum.
Time and time again you come here to preach about how awesome the
lifting age 65 was and time and time again you are rebuffed by most
everyone here. I also said someone had to pay for that
great deal and it was the "15" or so people that frequent this forum and
thousands of others in the regionals, FO seats and those trying to just
enter the industry. Can you admit someone had to pay for this? Getting
to fly an extra 5 years is not a benefit when 5 years was taken from you.
We pilots have a shelf-life and when you consider the law of compounding
interest, we need to make the most as early as we can. Not late.

c. This is simple economics and math. Age 65 happened and many pilots
had to pay a price. Those who stagnated, were furloughed or never even
hired because of demand paid the price for this change of law. Those that
were established captains made out great! They already had their
upgrade and high wage scale and got to go an extra 5 years.

d. As for the commuting comment, you might want to re-read what I said.
This is painful having to re-explain this point and all others but here it is
again....I know it's a choice to commute (remember I fly airliners for a
living). My point was this: If I am to ever come close to recouping the
years of furlough and stagnation caused by age 65, I will have to accept a
poor quality of life...not because I want to but because I need to. I live in
my domicile but it is a senior domicile. I have chosen to make less money
and maintain a quality of life for my family.

e. You do not have the right to call those who paid for this law selfish.
When you do it lacks any semblance of class. Thousands lost out big on
this yet I know thousands will benefit in the future. We paid for it so
others can reap it. So please don't come here (where your point has
been very unwelcome today as in the past) and rub our noses in how
great this was. It was great for thousands of captains and it is great for
everyone getting hired today. But telling us we have to fly 5 years longer
to be where we would have been is not what I call a "good deal."

I hope you understand my point now.