121 Reg T/Off confusion

[Mtnjam]

Obviously standards are 1 mile for A/C with 2 or less Eng. and 1/2 mile with more than 2 Eng.
I Also understand that each Jepp. plate lists takoff RVR.
I Also understand that you can take off with 600RVR if you have centerline lights and runway marking to maintain directional control thoughout the takeoff run. My question is if you can take off with 600 RVR, then why do airports list RVR T/off mins on Jepp plates??
So it goes like this, I Figure.
If you have no center lights you use Standard Takeoff mins??
So when do you use Published Takeoff minimums if you can takeoff with 600RVR?? That's my question........... Alrighty then.........

 

[Rally]

Ok...
You have

Standard-1 sm (2 engines)

1/4- with adequate visual range

and

600 rvr (666) sometimes (66)

For standard ALL you need is 1 mile no runway markings at all.
Forget about lights and RVR outages etc.

For 1/4 you need "adequate visual reference" and a report from the touchdown RVR meter however a mid RVR sensor can take the place if the TD is broken. Adequate visual range, is CL (centerline lighting) RCLM (runway centerline marking) if those are not there you need and other combination of features on the runway that identify the surfrace. Say for example the CL and RCLM are covered with snow but you have the runway edge lights or markings. You are good to go because you have "adequate visual reference"

For 600 RVR you need ALL three RVR sensor readings (except that if one is broken you can use any of the other two) The all/both need to be above 600 RVR to takeoff and you need BOTH CL and RCLM to takeoff. If they are covered with snow its a no go. If any of the RVR readings are below 600 its a no go.


Why the difference? As far a I can tell....Not all runways have CL. Not all runways have three sensors TD, Mid, and Rollout. Some only have TD, some only have TD and MID etc. Therefore you can't to a 666 takeoff (600,600,600 rvr). Then you move up to 1/4 adequate visual reference, if you don't have those criteria (which I doubt it would ever happen) then its a 1 sm standard.


Having just busted a interview on this stuff I and spending hours on it afterwards I think I've finally got it.

 

[Mtnjam]

Posted RVR.

Yes, I have an interview coming up and I'm probabally looking into this more than I should, but the post on Landing Mins were good too. However what about the posted RVR for the airport for Takeoff mins??
1. so if you have no RCL and or RCLM you cannot use the 600 RVR ??
2. then it goes to posted mins???
3. Then standard of 1 mile?
RVR posted on apprch charts is usually lower than 5000 RVR.

 

[Rally]

Yes, I have an interview coming up and I'm probabally looking into this more than I should, but the post on Landing Mins were good too. However what about the posted RVR for the airport for Takeoff mins??
1. so if you have no RCL and or RCLM you cannot use the 600 RVR ??
2. then it goes to posted mins???
3. Then standard of 1 mile?
RVR posted on apprch charts is usually lower than 5000 RVR.

Actually I think you're looking into it fine, not worth busting a interview.

1. Yes.
Per the Jepp for say Orlando Intl (MCO) 17l/r 18l/r 35l 36l/r
"CL & RCLM any RVR out other two required"
In other words to use the 600 rvr you need to have centerline lighting, runway centerline markings and three RVR readings 600 or above. If one RVR sensor is not working the other two sensors have to both be reading 600 or above.

2. Now on the SAME runway it has "adequate vis ref" 16 rvr or 1/4.
You can use the adequate vis ref minimums if:

TD Rvr is available (Mid can be used if TD inop, but TD is controlling)
-RVR is above 1600
You have ONLY ONE of the following aids:
HIRL
CL
RCLM
If you don't have any of these you may still depart however you must be able to "continously identify the takeoff surface...."

IE. edge markings etc.

If you don't have ANY of the above (unlikely like I said but possible) Then you have to use the standard visibility.


I may not be answering your question completely because I don't know what you mean by "posted mins". If you mean landing minimums. You can takeoff with less then landing mins if you have a takeoff alternate above minimums for THAT airport with one engine cruise in still air.

Above example.

The ILS 18L requires 1800 rvr to land.

The airport's RVR readings are measuring 600,700,1000 rvr respectively. The centerline lighting is not notamed and the runway centerline markings are not covered by something and visible, you may takeoff but you need a takeoff alternate within one hour cruise on one engine in still air.

 

[Singlecoil]

Since you guys are practicing for interviews, here's one for ya.

Using the above example at Orlando, can you take off if the RVR is 1600, 400, 400?

By the way, I think MtnJam is getting confused about "standard" takeoff mins. The one mile, half mile mins don't apply to any 121 carrier. They all have approved reduced mins which are the ones you are talking about. Basically, if you have 1600 or a quarter mile, you can blast off. Oops did I give it away?

 

[lawfly]

121 Reg T/Off Confusion

A whole new generation of pilots has come along since I was flying scheduled 135 in Twin Otters. Not sure about 121 per se, but, as I recall, we had non-standard everything per our approved ops specs. Non standard takeoff mins, non-standard alternate mins. Under the standard stuff, there would be have been days we couldn't have taken off or have had any legal alternates within range, even though they were at or above landing mins. Not sure about the 600 RVR stuff. Just thought I'd interject the "ops specs" factor. For nostalgia, if nothing else.

 

[Rally]

Since you guys are practicing for interviews, here's one for ya.

Using the above example at Orlando, can you take off if the RVR is 1600, 400, 400?

By the way, I think MtnJam is getting confused about "standard" takeoff mins. The one mile, half mile mins don't apply to any 121 carrier. They all have approved reduced mins which are the ones you are talking about. Basically, if you have 1600 or a quarter mile, you can blast off. Oops did I give it away?

Nope, all RVRs must be 600 or above.

Thats why its says
TDZ RVR 6
Mid RVR 6
Rollout RVR 6

 

[Rally]

Actually some say:

TDZ RVR 6
Rollout RVR 6

(or mid and roll, or roll and tdz etc)

In that case yes both must be at or above 600 rvr.

 

[xdashdriver]

If the published minimums are greater than standard in the first place, then you cannot reduce at all. That would be an excellent reason to put minimums on the plate.

 

[146guy]

Rally- if the touchdown is 1600 you are good to go regardless of what the other two say. I dont' have my ops specs in front of me to quote exactly, but trust me.

 

[Rally]

Rally- if the touchdown is 1600 you are good to go regardless of what the other two say. I dont' have my ops specs in front of me to quote exactly, but trust me.

I misread. Your right, but you would be using "adequate vis ref" mins. You need 1600 from the TDZ or MID (TD is inop) but TDZ is controlling.

My original answer would apply to this scenerio.

TD 1200
Mid 300
Roll 1000.

 

[Mtnjam]

Rally's got it

Rally, Yes you're right. I got about an hour of ground on 121 regs over the phone for a friend of mine who's a Captain on a CRJ for Pinnacle. I didn't understand that the plate would say 666 for Takeoff mins. I thought that was just some number that magically appeared from somebody's crystal ball. So it's like you said. If the mins are 666, then you must have RCLM, CL in sight. Then it goes to 1600RVR and you must have adequate vis. If you don't have that, then you move up to Standards. I am unfortunately new at using Jepp Charts and didn't realize they make it so easy for you.

 

[Rally]

Yea I was new to Jepps too until about a month ago. Part of my my problem with 121 was that I was flying unschedule 135 and TO mins were totally different. Stuff like no take off alternate (per our ops manual) to name one. It made it real confusing.
We basically had to have landing mins to takeoff.

See ya

 

[philo beddoe]

It is almost pointless to learn much in the way of part 121, since every operator has a slightly different ops specs.

They are generally similar to each other, but even detailed knowledge of 121 is nowhere near as enlightening as your first well-taught 121 indoc.

 

[igneousy2]

By the way, I think MtnJam is getting confused about "standard" takeoff mins. The one mile, half mile mins don't apply to any 121 carrier. They all have approved reduced mins which are the ones you are talking about. Basically, if you have 1600 or a quarter mile, you can blast off. Oops did I give it away?

Be careful with absolutes they might get you in trouble...

Standard t/o mins do apply to all 121 carriers, however, most 121 carriers have this waived in their ops specs and allow some level of reduction, not always down to 6,6,6.

Island Air may be the only 121 operator that doesn't have any waivers. I was pleasently surprised to find out in ground school that we were bound by standard t/o mins as pilots aren't trained to the "lower" standard. If I never do another 6-6-6 take off in my life I will not be disappointed.

The other benefit of being bound by standard t/o mins is the company won't dispatch you on a turn unless you will be able to t/off again from the outstation so that means in effect you won't do many approaches if the vis is less than 1 mile (not that it happens very often here). Also very effective for a stress free work environment.

Later

 

[CitationLover]

for ex. if it is below std mins the captain always does the t/o..

 

[100LL... Again!]

Our opspecs said that for 1/4 mile you could have (if memory serves):

Runway lights
or
Centerline lights
or
Centerline markings
or
Adequate visual ref


For 1600 RVR:
All of the above EXCEPT the adequate vis ref

In other words adequate vis ref DOES NOT apply if your RVR for that runway is reporting 1600

I think Rally might have mis-stated this.
(?)

 

[Aero44]

Ok. I have a couple of interviews coming up with regionals. Now there are the standard takoff mins, 1sm with 2 engines which apply to all 135 & 121 carriers. From what I understand, to takeoff with anything less than that, that specific airline has to use their ops specs. Am I correct? If not, where in the regs does it state the 600-600-600 & the "adequate visual reference" takeoff minimums? As far as the interviews go, are they going to want me to answer with just the standard takeoff mins or with these mins (6,6,6 & 1600) that most airlines have approved in their ops specs? As igneousy2 pointed out, not all airlines are approved to do a 6,6,6 takeoff.
Another quick question that I have is what are the differences between a 121 supplemental, domestic, & flag carrier?

 

[Weasil]

I think you want to check out 121.651 if memory serves me correctly.
Ops Specs are what's important though. For example our ops specs allow take off with 555 but if jep mins are published that are higher than that then we go by those.

 

[igneousy2]

Interviewers are more interested you show that you know the regulations of the operation that you are operating under. If you are coming from the CFI world then don't worry about the 6-6-6 rule. You can say that you've been reading about, you're not quite sure, but it goes something like... if you've been operating 91 all this time then don't sweat it. If you have been operating with the exemption then you better know it like the back of your hand.

As far as Domestic/Flag/Supplemental...When a company applies to be a part 121 carrier they have to declare if they are going to be a Domestic/Flag/or Supplemental carrier. These are different "types" of airlines as recognized by the FAA and they are all required to follow different "sections" of 121 (even though the regs are mixed together). From a pilot perspective, probably the two main differences are the Fuel requirements and the crew duty time and flight time limitation requirements. Generally Domestic is the most restrictive, Flag (International) is next, followed by Supplemental (i.e. charter operators).

Like most posts about 121 point out here, it is not very useful to study Part 121 regulations by themselves. What really needs to happen at your operation is spelled out in the ops specs and the operations manuals. There can be a mixing of all 3 in a single airline.

For example, American Eagle Airlines is a Domestic Airline that flies to International destinations. When they fly to International destinations they are still bound by domestic rules even though it is technically a "flag" operation. American Eagle Executive (SJU & MIA, a seperate 121 certificate) follow flag rules in all of their operations even though many of their flights are "domestic" flights. American Airlines has their pilots divided into two divisions, International and Domestic, before flying International pilots must have Flag required rest while Domestic pilots must have domestic rest even though an International pilot may do a domestic leg or vice versa, they must still comply with the regulations of their section. Island Air in Hawaii follows Domestic rules for all purposes except crew rest, where an exemption in the rules allows them to follow flag rules for crew rest purposes only.

Anyway, the point is, forget trying to figure out all the examples above. Don't worry about 121 regs until you get to a 121 airline. When you get to Indoc, take your ops specs, operations manual, and a copy of Part 121 and see how they are all interlinked for that particular airlines operation. It will only make sense once you have all 3 documents in front of you.

No interviewer is going to expect you to know every nuiance of the 121 regs. Just don't BS, if you don't know, you don't know.

Good luck.

Later